After the 2022 White Paper Movement, Li Ying, whose Twitter handle is @李老师不是你老师, transformed from an art student who originally just posted witty remarks on Weibo into one of the most influential overseas dissidents. Bumingbai Podcast interviewed him on the first anniversary of the White Paper Movement and earlier this year, and each time, host Yuan Li noticed his significant changes. Over the past three years, he seems to have grown from a reluctant rebel into an active and optimistic revolutionary.Li Ying said he started reposting simply out of a desire to return home during the pandemic, but ultimately could never go home again. Now, Teacher Li's Twitter account has over two million followers, broadcasting daily to the world about what is happening in China. Forced demolitions here, factories owing wages there, a lone brave individual appearing in yet another city. This year, some have called Teacher Li's Twitter account the overseas petition office.Besides operating the Twitter account, Li Ying has done even more in the past two years. He and his team have started more crowdsourced investigation projects, such as the 'Cattle and Horses ICU' we discussed in a previous podcast. He and his team also run a daily news channel on YouTube.How did the White Paper Movement affect Li Ying's life? What did Li Ying experience, transforming from an ordinary art student studying abroad to a dissident carefully profiled by China? How does he understand everything he has encountered? How did he transform his identity? And what are his goals?Welcome to donate to Bumingbai Podcast by clicking here: https://www.bumingbai.net/donation/Timeline:03:45 Moved four times, death threats, depression, became somewhat more cheerful — what has Teacher Li experienced in the past three years?08:22 Once encountered the mafia at his doorstep12:06 'I will most likely be assassinated in the future'16:12 Once thought about deleting his account, but his bank card was suddenly frozen18:20 Friends around him were questioned and profiled by the CCP22:23 What is Teacher Li's daily life like? Does he have an ultimate goal?25:08 Projects undertaken this year: Stars Go Home, Cattle and Horses ICU and 611, Free Walk, 'Are You Happy?'28:03 Since the White Paper Movement, fewer people are willing to submit contributions34:51 Re-discussing the cryptocurrency issuance controversy, '(If I had to choose again) I would still do it, but I would do things better'46:17 Teacher Li's belief: 'I want to truly go home, because I miss home'47:54 How does he view criticism? How does he hope the public understands this endeavor?55:26 How he views the experiences of the '89 generation and his own generation01:01:31 Guest RecommendationsGuest Recommendations:Gene Sharp, *From Dictatorship to Democracy: A Conceptual Framework for Liberation*Peter Drucker, *The Effective Executive*Ben Stiller, *The Secret Life of Walter Mitty*Related Links:'Are You Happy?' Survey on Chinese Youth Employment: https://35.wtf/questionnaire/surveyEP-074 Teacher Li: The White Paper Movement is a beginning, not an endEP-150 Teacher Li: Li Coin, ICU Model, and the Possibility of Resisting Totalitarianism Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 李老师：一个革命者的养成

Original description: <p>2022年白纸运动之后，李颖，也就是推特账号@李老师不是你老师，从一个原本只是在微博上发发俏皮话的艺术留学生，成为了海外最有影响力的异议者之一。不明白播客曾在白纸运动一周年和今年早些时候都采访过他，每一次，主持人袁莉都有感觉到他明显的变化，过去三年，他彷佛从一个不情不愿的反贼，成长为一个积极乐观的革命者。</p><br /><p>李颖说，他开始转帖只是出于疫情期间想回家的愿望，最后却再也无法回家。现在，李老师的推特账号有两百多万粉丝，每天围绕着中国正在发生的事情向全世界广播。这里强拆了，那里的工厂拖欠工资了，哪座城市又出现了一位孤勇者。今年，有人说，李老师的推特账号是海外信访局。</p><br /><p>除了运营推特账号，李颖最近两年还做了更多的事情，他和团队开始做更多类似众包调查的项目，例如我们此前播客谈到过的牛马ICU，他和团队还在YouTube上做一个每日新闻频道。</p><br /><p>白纸运动如何影响了李颖的人生？从一个普通留学艺术生，到被中国用心做侧写的异议分子，李颖经历了什么？他如何理解自己遭遇的一切？他如何转变自己的身份认同？他的目标又是什么？</p><br /><p>欢迎点击向不明白播客捐赠：<a href="https://www.bumingbai.net/donation/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.bumingbai.net/donation/</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>03:45 搬家四次、死亡威胁、抑郁、开朗了一些，过去三年，李老师经历了什么？</p><p>08:22 曾遭遇黑手党上门</p><p>12:06 “我未来大概率会被暗杀”</p><p>16:12 一度想过删掉账号，但银行卡突然被冻结了</p><p>18:20 身边的朋友被问话，被中共分析侧写</p><p>22:23 李老师的日常是什么样的？有终极目标吗？</p><p>25:08 这一年过做的项目：星星回家、牛马ICU和611、自由散步、“你姓福吗”</p><p>28:03 白纸运动至今，愿意投稿的人变少了</p><p>34:51 再谈发币争议，“（重新选择）还会做，但我会把事情做得更好”</p><p>46:17 李老师的信念：“我要真正意义上的回家，因为我想家”</p><p>47:54 怎么看待非议？希望公众怎么理解这份事业？</p><p>55:26 如何看待八九一代和这一代的经验</p><p>01:01:31 嘉宾推荐</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%BB%8E%E7%8B%AC%E8%A3%81%E5%88%B0%E6%B0%91%E4%B8%BB" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">吉恩·夏普《从独裁到民主——解放运动的概念框架》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/1322025/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">彼得·德鲁克《卓有成效的管理者》</a></p><p><a href="https://movie.douban.com/subject/2133323/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">本·斯蒂勒《白日梦想家》</a></p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p>“你姓福吗”中国青年就业情况调查：<a href="https://35.wtf/questionnaire/survey" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://35.wtf/questionnaire/survey</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2023/11/25/ep-074-whyyoutouzhele/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-074 李老师：白纸运动是开始，不是结束</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2025/05/17/ep-150-lilaoshi/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-150 李老师：Li币、ICU模式与对抗极权的可能</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

Today's program is a rerun. Three years ago, on November 24, a residential building in Urumqi caught fire, and due to lockdown measures, some residents were unable to escape, ultimately resulting in 10 deaths. The authorities' callousness, indifference, and arrogance regarding this incident sparked immense public discontent. The accumulated sorrow, anger, and despair among the people gradually escalated into offline protests.First, Urumqi citizens, then Beijing citizens, followed by university students across the country, and finally on Urumqi Middle Road in Shanghai. While mourning the victims of the fire, people demanded an end to lockdowns, no transfers, no nucleic acid testing, and some even loudly shouted slogans that were unimaginable just a few days prior: they wanted freedom, democracy, press freedom, the CCP to step down, and Xi Jinping to step down.Three years ago, the Bumingbai podcast interviewed 6 young people who participated in offline demonstrations in Shanghai and other places. At that time, the voices from the scene and the protesters were so real, and our emotions were so intense. At the time, I wanted to know what drove them to the scene, to post flyers. Were they afraid? Did they think such protests were meaningful?Three years have passed since the White Paper Movement. Some young people paid a price, and many consider it a significant turning point in their lives, as it gave rise to important movements and communities. Although the enthusiasm for discussing and mentioning the White Paper Movement may wane over time, three years ago, it greatly inspired each of us, showing that resistance can yield results. Today, we are re-releasing this podcast from three years ago, to commemorate the courage of all protesters and all those who passed away in the lockdown disaster.Click to view text versionTimeline:01:58 Protester 1. Serena19:06 Protester 2. Mr. Zhang from Shanghai34:30 Protester 3. Miranda51:13 Protester 4. Bruce01:13:24 Protester 5. Echo01:35:20 Protester 6. Student Atong from NanjingRelated links:"EP-125 Two Years Later: How Do We View the White Paper Movement?""EP-029 The Young Protesters: After Being Detained" Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 【精选】那些年轻的抗议者：我们为什么要上街

Original description: <p>今天的节目是重播。三年前的11月24日，乌鲁木齐一栋住宅楼着火，因为封控，一些居民无法逃生，最终10人死亡。官方对此事故的冷酷、漠然与傲慢引发了民间的巨大不满。人们积攒了多时的悲哀、气愤和绝望逐渐演变成线下抗议活动。</p><br /><p>先是乌鲁木齐市民，继而是北京市民，然后是全国各地的大学生们，最后在上海乌鲁木齐中路。大家在祭奠火灾死难者的同时，要求结束封控，不要转运，不要核酸，有些人甚至大声地喊出来仅仅在几天前还不可想像的口号，他们要自由，要民主，要新闻自由，要共产党下台，要习近平下台。</p><br /><p>三年前，不明白播客采访了6位参与上海以及其他地方线下示威活动的年轻人，那时候来自现场和抗议者的声音如此真实，我们的情绪也如此浓烈。当时，我想知道是什么驱使他们去了现场，去贴了传单，他们害怕吗？他们觉得这种抗议活动有意义吗？</p><br /><p>白纸运动过去了三年，一些年轻人付出了代价，很多人把它视为人生的重要分界线，它催生了一些重要的运动和社群。尽管随着时间的推移，白纸运动被谈论、被提起的热情会下降，但在三年前，它给了我们每个人莫大的鼓舞，让我们看到反抗会有结果。今天，我们重发三年前的这期播客，纪念所有抗议者的勇气，也纪念所有在封控灾难中离世的人们。</p><br /><p>点击查看<a href="https://bumingbai.net/2022/11/29/ep-027-china-protestors-text/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">文字版</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:58 抗议者1. Serena</p><p>19:06 抗议者2. 上海张先生</p><p>34:30 抗议者3. Miranda</p><p>51:13 抗议者4. 布鲁斯</p><p>01:13:24 抗议者5. Echo</p><p>01:35:20 抗议者6. 南京阿通同学</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2024/11/30/ep-125-baizhi/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-125 两年后，我们如何看待白纸运动？》</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2022/12/09/ep-029-china-protesters-detained/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-029 那些年轻的抗议者：被捕之后》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

Recently, Sino-Japanese relations have suddenly become tense, the cause being Sanae Takaichi's continuation of former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's statement "A Taiwan contingency is a Japan contingency" during a parliamentary interpellation. The Chinese side subsequently took a series of strong reactions, with Chinese Consul General in Osaka Xue Jian using words like "beheading" in a tweet, the Chinese military announcing live-fire drills in the Yellow Sea, and the Chinese government calling on its citizens not to travel or study in Japan, and to stop importing Japanese seafood.How did Sanae Takaichi manage to become Japan's first female prime minister? What are her governing philosophies, and where do her diplomatic ideas originate? Are China's series of pressure tactics more for the Japanese audience or the Chinese audience? Under intense pressure, will Sanae Takaichi retract her statements, and will she be a short-lived prime minister or potentially become a long-serving one like Shinzo Abe?This episode's guest, Akio Yaita, is perhaps the most suitable person to discuss these issues, and we held a live broadcast with him on Sunday. Akio Yaita was born in Tianjin; his father was a Japanese national who remained in China after World War II. He immigrated to Japan with his family at the age of 15, and previously served as a China correspondent and Taipei Bureau Chief for Sankei Shimbun. He founded the "Indo-Pacific Strategy Think Tank" in Taipei. Akio Yaita has known Sanae Takaichi for nearly 30 years, and in April this year, he invited Takaichi, who was visiting Taiwan as a member of the House of Representatives at the time, to speak at a forum at the Indo-Pacific Strategy Think Tank, serving as her interpreter himself.Everyone is welcome to watch the full live broadcast replay on the "Uncommon Sense Podcast" YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/live/3bzqqKIR6ZoTimestamps:01:56 How did Sanae Takaichi become Japan's first female prime minister?08:14 Family background: working-class, preference for sons over daughters11:32 A parliamentarian who dislikes socializing14:30 Shinzo Abe's successor? Where do Takaichi's domestic and foreign policy ideas come from?20:00 Why did Takaichi visit Taiwan's National Revolutionary Martyrs' Shrine?23:45 How to interpret Takaichi's "anti-immigration" policy?30:49 China-US-Japan relations: Must Japan follow the US?36:32 Why did Takaichi continue the "Taiwan contingency theory"? Intentional or unintentional?47:24 How is Xue Jian's "beheading theory" viewed in Japan?53:44 How much economic impact does China's pressure have on Japan?56:23 Is it possible for Sanae Takaichi to retract her statements?01:03:43 Possible directions for Japan's policies towards the US and China01:07:34 What changes have occurred in the views of the Japanese public and elites towards China?01:14:51 How do Chinese residents in Japan cope with the tension in bilateral relations, and can they stay?01:21:54 Will Sanae Takaichi be a short-lived prime minister or potentially serve for a long term?Related links:Akio Yaita's Facebook PageAkio Yaita's Youtube Channel Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 矢板明夫：我认识的高市早苗和她面对的中日关系巨浪

Original description: <p>最近，中日关系骤然紧张，起因是高市早苗在国会答辩中延续了前首相安倍晋三“台湾有事就是日本有事”的说法。中国方面随后采取了一系列的激烈反应，中国驻大阪总领事薛剑发推用了“砍头”这样的词，中国军队宣布在黄海举行实弹演习，中国政府还呼吁国民不要去日本旅行、留学，停止进口日本海产品。</p><br /><p>高市早苗为什么能当上日本第一位女首相？她的执政理念是什么，外交理念又从何而来？中国一连串的施压行动，更多地是做给日本人看还是做给中国人看？强压之下，高市早苗会否撤回言论，她会是一个短命的首相还是有可能成为像安倍晋三一样长期执政的首相？</p><br /><p>本期节目嘉宾矢板明夫可能是最适合谈这些问题的人，我们和他在周日做了一场直播。矢板明夫出生于天津，父亲是二战后留在中国的日本人，他15岁随家人移民日本，曾任日本产经新闻驻华记者、驻台北分社社长。他在台北创立了“印太战略智库”。矢板明夫近30年前就认识高市早苗，今年4月还邀请当时以众议员身份访问台湾的高市在印太战略智库的一个论坛上发言，他自己做翻译。</p><br /><p>欢迎大家到不明白播客的YouTube频道上收看完整的直播回放：<a href="https://youtube.com/live/3bzqqKIR6Zo" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtube.com/live/3bzqqKIR6Zo</a></p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-181-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-181-text</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:56&nbsp;高市早苗如何成为日本第一位女首相？</p><p>08:14&nbsp;家庭背景：工薪阶层、重男轻女</p><p>11:32&nbsp;一个不爱应酬的国会议员</p><p>14:30 安倍晋三继承人？高市的内政、外交理念从何而来</p><p>20:00 高市为何要参拜台湾的忠烈祠？</p><p>23:45 如何解读高市的“反移民”政策？</p><p>30:49 中美日关系：日本必须追随美国吗？</p><p>36:32 高市为什么要延续“台湾有事论”？有意还是无意？</p><p>47:24 日本国内如何看待薛剑的“斩首论”？</p><p>53:44 中国的施压对日本的经济影响有多大？</p><p>56:23 高市早苗可能撤回言论吗？</p><p>01:03:43 日本对美、对华政策的可能走向</p><p>01:07:34 日本公众与精英们对中国的看法有什么变化？</p><p>01:14: 51 在日华人如何应对两国关系的紧张，还能留下吗？</p><p>01:21:54 高市早苗会是一个短命首相还是有可能长期执政？</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/YaitaAkio/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">矢板明夫脸书主页</a></p><p><a href="https://youtube.com/channel/UCYhYIrWUS9z-1HN7M5KP7jQ?si=jkRJSH82A8uJ1Z-l" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">矢板明夫Youtube频道</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

Unclear Podcast's first talk show episode, Yuan Li, Cha Jianying, and Robert Daly discussed infrastructure, AI, and China through the lens of foreign internet celebrities. China's magnificent infrastructure has become a popular topic for English-speaking internet celebrities. Writer Cha Jianying was an early student who went to the United States in the 1980s, and Dai Bo first came to China in the 1980s. How do they view the praise of Chinese infrastructure in these online celebrity videos? Is this part of China's "great foreign propaganda" or is it the filter of foreign internet celebrities at work? The content of this dialogue also includes: Why does China invest huge resources in infrastructure, but is reluctant to supplement social security? From the Chongqing East Railway Station with an investment of more than 50 billion yuan, the English-speaking internet celebrities' praise for China's high-speed rail, the dilapidation of the New York subway, and the quagmire of California's high-speed rail - what kind of institutional logic and national will are reflected behind these comparisons? How are efficiency, freedom, speed and happiness ranked in the two development paths of China and the United States? Will the Chinese model be the future the world wants to see? **This episode was recorded offline. You are welcome to watch the YouTube video version:** [https://youtu.be/BcwXoIPREqc](https://youtu.be/BcwXoIPREqc) You are also welcome to subscribe to our new channel: **Unclear Talk Show** Timeline: 01:25 Yuan Li's Instagram timeline is occupied by English-speaking internet celebrities praising China's high-speed rail! 02:48 Cha Jianying said about China's infrastructure: "Great, great, great, awesome, awesome, awesome" 03:52 "There are all kinds of weirdos on the New York subway" 05:06 Chongqing East Railway Station: The world's largest high-speed railway station, costing more than 50 billion yuan 05:48 Dai Bo took the train to record the show: The American railway was so shaky that he couldn't type! 07:48 From liking foreigners praising China and "Reference News" in the 1980s to today's online celebrity videos: China's change in mentality 10:09 Dai Bo's most recent trip to China: full of confidence, but raised many questions about the economy 13:29 Basket Line and Marathon Train 17:23 China's massive infrastructure spending huge amounts of money, Chongqing farmers' basic pension is 140 yuan 20:08 The examples of Guanzi and Hayek, why can the people only be grateful? 26:08 California High-Speed Rail: The irreconcilable contradiction between American infrastructure and private property rights 28:00 "It would be much more convenient to have high-speed rail from San Francisco to Los Angeles" "Who cares? Who is it convenient for?" 29:18 China's technological development does make the United States anxious, but the needs of individuals and the needs of geopolitics must be separated 33:23 "Discounted without self-choice and happiness" 33:41 Comparison of infrastructure models in Japan, India, and Asia 37:29 Cha Jianying did not expect China when she first arrived in the United States: economic development is so fast, political progress is so slow 38:17 How to view American anxiety? 47:12 Monitoring society: a perfect combination of 1984 and Brave New World 49:36 "China is successful because it doesn't let billionaires decide our policies" Related Links: [DC Unclear Festival丨Cha Jianying: Why I Want to Cut Myself Off from the People, Elites, and Mama's Boys](https://youtu.be/VMk2ZVaJGXk)

Original title: 不明白脱口秀：高铁、AI和外国网红镜头里的中国

Original description: <p>不明白播客的第一期脱口秀节目，袁莉和查建英、戴博Robert Daly一起讨论了基建、AI和外国网红镜头里的中国。</p><br /><p>中国恢弘的基建成为了英文网红的热门话题。作家查建英是80年代赴美的早期留学生，戴博则是80年代第一次到中国。他们如何看待这些网红视频里对中国基建的赞叹？这是中国“大外宣”的一部分，还是外国网红们的滤镜在起作用？</p><br /><p>本期对话内容还包括：为什么中国把巨额资源投入基建领域，却迟迟不愿意补足社会保障？从投资 500 多亿元的重庆东站、英语网红对中国高铁的赞叹、纽约地铁的破旧、加州高铁的深陷泥潭——这些对比背后反映了怎样的制度逻辑和国家意志？效率、自由、速度与幸福感，在中美两种发展路径中如何排序？中国模式会是世界想要看到的未来吗？</p><br /><p><strong>本期节目为线下录制，欢迎大家收看Youtube视频版本：</strong><a href="https://youtu.be/BcwXoIPREqc" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/BcwXoIPREqc</a></p><p>也欢迎订阅我们推出的新频道：<a href="https://youtu.be/SLfjLslJY3Q" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>不明白脱口秀</strong></a></p><br /><p><strong>文字版：</strong><a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-180-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-180-text</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:25&nbsp;袁莉的instagram时间线被赞叹中国高铁的英文网红们占领了！</p><p>02:48&nbsp;查建英说中国基建：“伟大伟大伟大，厉害厉害厉害”</p><p>03:52&nbsp;“纽约地铁上有各种怪人”</p><p>05:06 重庆东站：全球面积最大的高铁站，一共花了500多亿人民币</p><p>05:48 戴博坐火车来录节目：美国铁路晃到没法打字！</p><p>07:48 从80年代喜欢外国人夸中国、《参考消息》到如今的网红视频：中国的心态转变</p><p>10:09 戴博最近一次中国行：充满自信心，但对经济提出了很多质疑</p><p>13:29 背篓专线和马拉火车</p><p>17:23 中国大量的基建花费巨额财政，重庆农民基础退休金140元</p><p>20:08 管子和哈耶克的例子，为什么民众只能感恩戴德？</p><p>26:08 加州高铁：美国基建和私人产权之间无法调和的矛盾</p><p>28:00 “旧金山到洛杉矶有高铁会方便很多” “who cares？方便谁？”</p><p>29:18 中国的技术发展确实让美国焦虑，但要把个人的需求和地缘政治的需求分开</p><p>33:23“没有自我选择权和幸福是打折扣的”</p><p>33:41 日本、印度，亚洲基建模式对比</p><p>37:29 查建英刚到美国时未能预料的中国：经济发展如此快，政治进展如此慢</p><p>38:17 如何看待美国人的焦虑？</p><p>47:12 监控社会：1984和美丽新世界的完美结合</p><p>49:36 “中国之所以成功，是因为不让亿万富豪决定我们的政策”</p><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/VMk2ZVaJGXk" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">DC不明白节丨查建英：我为何要自绝于人民、精英与妈宝男</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

For a long time, the Western world, including the United States, has seemed unable to understand China. Many years ago, intellectuals such as Liu Xiaobo and Fang Lizhi raised similar questions. Liu Xiaobo said: "Foreigners don't understand China, not because of insufficient IQ, but because they are too straightforward to keep up with the devious minds of the Chinese." Fang Lizhi believed that Western culture always has a "double standard" when it comes to human rights issues. As a famous sinologist who has maintained close contact with Chinese society for a long time, how does Professor Perry Link view the Western world's misunderstanding of China? At the second Bumingbai Festival, we talked about his new article: "Scratching the Surface: China Hands." Why does the United States always misunderstand China? What mistakes have Western China experts made? How are "China experts" affected by language barriers, the Chinese bureaucratic system, and Washington's evaluation system? How does this environment affect US policy towards China and Chinese studies? We also talked about why he is so persistent in criticizing this. Perry Link mentioned the urgency of age and the responsibility of a professor, "A professor's tenure is not a reward, but to give you the freedom to speak the truth." Timeline: 00:00 Crosstalk performance 10:28 "Scratching the Surface: China Hands," and Liu Xiaobo's saying "Foreigners don't understand China" 15:17 Western double standards: sometimes demonizing China, sometimes idealizing it 17:01 How does the US government's personnel system affect its China policy? 20:41 If you only focus on Zhongnanhai, what aspects of Chinese politics will you ignore? 23:03 Examples of American experts applying Western experience to China, but getting the opposite result 26:00 When China experts no longer use truth as the standard, but pursue remarks that Washington likes 30:33 Akio Yasuko and Perry Link have both been called "anti-China scholars" 33:11 What impact will it have if scholars don't pay attention to the Chinese people and ordinary people? 36:29 Why is the voice of scratching the surface always the most popular? And rarely reflected on? 41:23 Why does Perry Link want to speak out in criticism? 46:11 Q&A: How can one understand the United States without scratching the surface? 47:55 Q&A: How do you view China's democratic process? And "Wish Professor Link good health forever" Related Links: [Bumingbai Festival] EP-107 Perry Link: Why Xi Jinping Cannot Bring Chinese Society Back to the Mao Era Guest Opinion - Perry Link: Scratching the Surface China Hands Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 【DC不明白节】林培瑞：美国为什么总是搞不懂中国？

Original description: <p>长期以来，美国在内的西方世界似乎总是看不懂中国。许多年前，刘晓波、方励之等知识分子就提出过类似的问题，刘晓波说：“老外看不懂中国，不是因为智商不够，而是由于心眼太直，跟不上中国人那九曲十八弯的花花肠子。”方励之认为，西洋文化看人权问题总是有“双重标准”。</p><br /><p>作为和中国社会长期保持密切联系的著名汉学家，林培瑞教授如何看待西方世界对中国的误解？在第二届不明白节上，我们谈论了他的新文章：《隔靴搔痒的中国通》。为何美国总是搞不懂中国？西洋的中国通们犯下了哪些错误？“中国专家”们如何被语言障碍、中国官僚体系、以及华府的评价体系所影响？这样的环境又会如何影响美国的对华政策和中国研究。</p><br /><p>我们也谈到，为何他执着地对此发出批评，林培瑞提到年龄的紧迫感、教授的责任，“教授的铁饭碗并不是奖赏，而是让你有说真话的自由”。</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-179-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-179-text</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>00:00 相声表演</p><p>10：28《隔靴搔痒的中国通》，以及刘晓波那句“老外看不懂中国”</p><p>15：17 西方的双重标准：有时把中国妖魔化，有时把它理想化</p><p>17：01 美国政府的用人制度，如何影响对华政策？</p><p>20：41 如果只关注中南海，会忽略中国政治的哪些方面？</p><p>23：03 美国专家用西方经验套中国，结果却南辕北辙的例子</p><p>26：00 当中国问题专家不再以真伪为标准，而追求华府喜欢的言论</p><p>30：33 阿古智子和林培瑞都被叫过“反华学者”</p><p>33：11 如果学者不关注中国民间和老百姓，会带来什么影响？</p><p>36：29 为什么总是隔靴搔痒的声音最受欢迎？并且鲜有反思？</p><p>41：23 为什么林培瑞要发出批评的声音？</p><p>46：11 现场提问：如何能不隔靴搔痒地了解美国？</p><p>47：55 现场提问：如何看待中国的民主进程？并“祝林老师永远健康”</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/J_EJSaXomTQ" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">【湾区不明白节】EP-107 林培瑞：为什么习近平不能将中国社会带回毛时代</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2025/09/07/bmb-lpr-op02/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">嘉宾观点-林培瑞：隔靴搔痒的中国通们</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

The 2025 Nobel Prize in Economics was awarded to Joel Mokyr, Philippe Aghion, and Peter Howitt for their research contributions on how innovation and "creative destruction" drive economic growth and improve global living standards. The chairman of the Economics Prize Committee stated after announcing the award this year: "The work of the laureates shows that economic growth is not a given. We must maintain the mechanisms behind creative destruction so that we do not fall into stagnation again." This episode features Professor Xu Chenggang, a senior research fellow at the Stanford Center for China's Economy and Institutions. As a classmate of this year's Nobel laureate Aghion, Professor Xu Chenggang explains the main research of this year's award and how we can use this research to understand the current state of Sino-US technological and economic competition. What conditions are required for sustained economic growth? Why did ancient China make many important contributions to human technological development, but the industrial revolution did not occur in modern China? What is the real meaning of economic growth, and what kind of economic growth will truly improve people's living standards? As a wave of American conservatism arrives, research funding is cut, and stricter immigration policies are introduced, how do we understand the Nobel laureate's expression of concern about the United States and envy of China? Timeline: 01:24 What are the main research achievements of the three economists who won the award? 05:32 Why has the Nobel Committee's focus shifted from econometrics to institutions and history? 08:23 Mokyr's contribution: "Discussed that the Enlightenment was the foundation of the Industrial Revolution" 09:22 "Useful Knowledge" and "Republic of Letters" 13:53 Ancient China made important contributions to technological development, why did the industrial revolution not occur in China? 18:07 The impact of China's unification and Europe's chaotic borders on scientific creation 18:32 Can Mokyr's theory be used to explain the problems facing the old order in contemporary America? 24:09 The progress of science and technology does not automatically translate into economic growth. How should we view Silicon Valley's anxiety about the lack of a mature industrial chain? 35:23 Comparison of the current situation of Sino-US technological development, how should we view the Nobel laureates also expressing envy of China? 46:18 Cutting research funding and stricter immigration policies: Nobel laureates' concerns about the current situation in the United States and envy of China 52:22 Will AI's industrial transformation of China be faster and more thorough than in the United States? 57:24 The world's largest high-speed rail station, bamboo basket special lines, and extremely low pensions, what is the real meaning of economic growth? 1:02:48 Can studying history necessarily predict the future? Guest Recommendations: Joel Mokyr, The Enlightened Economy: Britain and the Industrial Revolution, 1700-1850 The Culture of Growth: The Origins of the Modern Economy Hayek, The Road to Serfdom Related Links: EP-121 Xu Chenggang on the Nobel Prize: Why Do Nations Fail? EP-166 Xu Chenggang: Sino-US Technological Competition, Will China Win? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 许成钢：诺奖的启示——中国会在AI产业革命中打败美国吗？

Original description: <p>2025年诺贝尔经济学奖授予了乔尔·莫基尔 (Joel Mokyr)、菲利普·阿吉翁 (Philippe Aghion) 和彼得·豪伊特 (Peter Howitt)，以表彰他们在创新和“创造性破坏”如何推动经济增长，和提高全球生活水平方面的研究贡献。</p><br /><p>经济学奖委员会主席在今年公布奖项后表示：“获奖者的工作表明，经济增长并非理所当然。我们必须维护创造性破坏背后的机制，这样我们才不会再次陷入停滞”。</p><br /><p>本期节目的嘉宾是斯坦福大学中国经济与制度研究中心高级研究员许成钢教授，作为今年诺尔比经济学奖得主阿吉翁的同班同学，许成钢教授解释了今年获奖的主要研究，以及我们如何通过这些研究，来理解当下中美科技和经济竞争的态势？</p><br /><p>经济的持续增长需要什么样的条件？为什么中国古代对人类科技发展做出了很多重要贡献，但工业革命却没有发生在近代中国？经济增长的真正含义是什么，什么样的经济增长会真正改善人民生活水平？当美国保守主义浪潮来袭、科研经费被削减、更严苛的移民政策出台，我们如何理解诺奖得主表达对美国的担忧和对中国的羡慕？</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-178-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-178-text</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:24 获奖的三位经济学家的主要研究成果是什么？</p><p>05:32 诺奖委员会的目光为什么从计量经济学转向制度和历史？</p><p>08:23 莫基尔的贡献：“讨论了启蒙运动是产业革命的基础”</p><p>09:22 “有用的知识”和“学术共和国”</p><p>13:53 古代中国在科技发展上做出重要贡献，为什么工业革命却没有在中国发生？</p><p>18:07 古代中国的大一统和欧洲的混乱国界，两种情景对科学创造的影响</p><p>18:32 莫基尔的学说是否可以用来解释当代美国的旧秩序面临的问题？</p><p>24:09 科学技术的进步不会自动转变为经济增长，如何看待硅谷在缺乏成熟产业链方面的焦虑？</p><p>35:23 中美科技发展现状对比，如何看待诺奖得主也流露出对中国的羡慕？</p><p>46:18 削减科研经费、更严苛的移民政策：诺奖得主对美国现状的担忧和对中国的羡慕</p><p>52:22 AI对中国的产业改造会比美国更快更彻底吗？</p><p>57:24 世界上最大的高铁站、背篓专线和极低的养老金，经济增长的真正含义是什么？</p><p>1:02:48 研究历史必然能预测未来吗？</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p>乔尔·莫基尔《<a href="https://archive.org/details/enlightenedecono0000moky" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Enlightened Economy : Britain and the Industrial Revolution, 1700-1850</a>》</p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/34917768/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《增长的文化·现代经济的起源》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/1077528/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">哈耶克《通往奴役之路》</a></p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/E44Q2y4vzNo" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-121 许成钢谈诺奖：国家为何失败？》</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/UgK4iR5lz4c" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-166 许成钢：中美科技竞争，中国要赢了吗？》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

October 20-October 23, the Fourth Plenary Session of the 19th Central Committee was held in Beijing. Since the Politburo meeting at the end of September decided on the time of the Fourth Plenary Session, this meeting has become the focus of external attention. Before the Fourth Plenary Session, nine PLA generals were announced to be expelled from the party and military, which further ignited people's imagination of the power struggle within the Communist Party. The communique of the Fourth Plenary Session released after the meeting showed that nearly 60 members of the Central Committee and alternate members of the Central Committee were absent from the meeting, and the 14 members of the Central Committee and alternate members of the Central Committee who were confirmed to be expelled from the party also set a record for previous plenary sessions. After the release of the communique of the Fourth Plenary Session, Cai Xia, a retired professor from the Central Party School, analyzed the details of the Fourth Plenary Session that are worthy of attention. Why is there such a large-scale absence of senior CCP officials? How to interpret the recent "purge" of the military? What is the logic of the military purge, who is purging whom, and what role does Zhang Shengmin, who became the vice chairman of the Central Military Commission in the Fourth Plenary Session, play in it? Will Xi Jinping continue to be re-elected? Timeline: 01:39 What are the noteworthy details in the communique of the Fourth Plenary Session? 06:16 How was the convention of the plenary session of the Central Committee established? 11:40 How to view the large number of senior military officials absent from the Fourth Plenary Session? 15:22 Military purge: The power struggle between Xi Jinping and Zhang Youxia 24:26 How to interpret Zhang Shengmin's rise to the vice chairman of the Central Military Commission? 34:21 Will China's economic difficulties affect the legitimacy of Xi Jinping's rule? 38:01 Through the communique of the Fourth Plenary Session, what is Xi Jinping worried about? 40:31 Will Xi Jinping be forced to introduce a successor? 44:16 Guest recommendation Guest recommendation: The Death of Stalin by Armando Iannucci EP-175 Cheng Lei: CCTV Anchor, Leaking Secrets, and Three Years in a National Security Prison Cheng Lei's "Memoir of Freedom" Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 蔡霞：我看四中全会和习近平的大清洗

Original description: <p>10月20日至10月23日，二十届四中全会在北京举行。自从9月底的政治局会议决定四中全会召开时间之后，这场会议就成为外界的关注焦点。四中全会前，九名解放军上将被宣布开除党籍军籍，更进一步点燃了人们对于共产党权力内斗的想象。</p><br /><p>会后发布的四中全会公报中则显示，近60名中央委员及中央候补委员缺席了本次会议，而被确认开除党籍的14名中央委员及中央候补委员，也创下了历届全会之最。</p><br /><p>四中全会公报公布后，中央党校退休教授蔡霞为我们分析了此次召开的四中全会值得关注的细节。为什么会有如此大规模的中共高层缺席？如何解读近期发生的军队“大清洗”？军队清洗的逻辑是什么，谁在清洗谁，在四中全会中成为军委副主席的张升民又在其中充当何种角色？习近平还会一直连任下去吗？</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-177-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-177-text</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:39 四中全会公报有哪些值得关注的细节？</p><p>06:16 中央委员会全体会议的惯例是如何定下来的？</p><p>11:40 如何看待大量军队高层缺席四中全会？</p><p>15:22 军队大清洗：习近平和张又侠的权力角力</p><p>24:26 如何解读军委副主席张升民的上位？</p><p>34:21 中国经济困局会影响习近平的执政合法性吗？</p><p>38:01 透过四中全会的公报，习近平在担忧什么？</p><p>40:31 习近平会迫于压力推出接班人吗？</p><p>44:16 嘉宾推荐</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://movie.douban.com/subject/26779885/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《斯大林之死》阿尔曼多·伊安努奇</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/OB7qCYOFqqU" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-175 成蕾：央视主播、泄露机密与国安监狱里的三年》</a></p><p><a href="https://jfbooks.org/products/9781460717912" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">成蕾《自由回忆录》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

四中全会召开在即，包括军委副主席何卫东、军委政治工作部主任苗华在内的9名军队高层被明确开除党籍、军籍，再次引发外界对中共权力内斗的想象。 第二届不明白节上，从中共的九三大阅兵到军队反腐，蔡霞对习近平与中共内部的权力斗争做了详尽的分析：为什么说习近平与中共必有一斗，但不是恶斗？外界应该如何看待军队反腐？以及一个也许有十亿中国人都关心的话题：习近平可能的终局是什么？ 蔡霞于1992年进入中央党校学习，获得硕士、博士学位后留校任教直至退休。她的主要研究领域是中共党建。2020年，她因为批评习近平被开除党籍。 **采访征集：**不明白播客寻找正在中国AI和机器人行业工作和创业的人。在中国最受瞩目的行业工作是什么样的体验？你们怎么看中国的AI/机器人的发展状况？怎么看AGI、AI safety和美国的竞争？你们的工作压力来自于什么？欢迎来信至[email protected] ，分享你们在AI、机器人行业工作的状态。 注：本期节目录制于9月6日华盛顿不明白节。 **时间轴：** 01:29 蔡霞对九三大阅兵的观看感受 07:21 习近平与中共必有一斗，但不是恶斗？ 12:50 党和军队的关系：党指挥枪还是枪压着党？ 15:17 中共对国内民众的管控正在松动 24:37 习近平上台12年，为何今天才被党内视作威胁？ 27:53 党内是否还有足够的力量和影响力来反对习近平？ 34:42 习近平会接受“体面下台”的选择吗？ 36:31 是什么在驱动习近平的行为？ 相关链接： [EP-020 蔡霞：我为什么对中共绝望？](https://bumingbai.net/2022/10/09/ep-020-cai-xia/) [EP-105 蔡霞：习近平接下来五年要做什么？](https://bumingbai.net/2024/07/26/ep-105-cai-xia/) [EP-162 吴国光：习近平失去权力了吗？](https://bumingbai.net/2025/08/02/ep-162-wgg/) Hosted on Acast. See [acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: 【DC不明白节】蔡霞：习近平可能的终局是什么？

Original description: <p>四中全会召开在即，包括军委副主席何卫东、军委政治工作部主任苗华在内的9名军队高层被明确开除党籍、军籍，再次引发外界对中共权力内斗的想象。</p><br /><p>第二届不明白节上，从中共的九三大阅兵到军队反腐，蔡霞对习近平与中共内部的权力斗争做了详尽的分析：为什么说习近平与中共必有一斗，但不是恶斗？外界应该如何看待军队反腐？以及一个也许有十亿中国人都关心的话题：习近平可能的终局是什么？</p><br /><p>蔡霞于1992年进入中央党校学习，获得硕士、博士学位后留校任教直至退休。她的主要研究领域是中共党建。2020年，她因为批评习近平被开除党籍。</p><br /><p><strong>采访征集：</strong>不明白播客寻找正在中国AI和机器人行业工作和创业的人。在中国最受瞩目的行业工作是什么样的体验？你们怎么看中国的AI/机器人的发展状况？怎么看AGI、AI safety和美国的竞争？你们的工作压力来自于什么？欢迎来信至[email protected] ，分享你们在AI、机器人行业工作的状态。</p><br /><p>注：本期节目录制于9月6日华盛顿不明白节。</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-176-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-176-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>01:29 蔡霞对九三大阅兵的观看感受</p><p>07:21 习近平与中共必有一斗，但不是恶斗？</p><p>12:50 党和军队的关系：党指挥枪还是枪压着党？</p><p>15:17 中共对国内民众的管控正在松动</p><p>24:37 习近平上台12年，为何今天才被党内视作威胁？</p><p>27:53 党内是否还有足够的力量和影响力来反对习近平？</p><p>34:42 习近平会接受“体面下台”的选择吗？</p><p>36:31 是什么在驱动习近平的行为？</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2022/10/09/ep-020-cai-xia/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-020 蔡霞：我为什么对中共绝望？</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2024/07/26/ep-105-cai-xia/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-105 蔡霞：习近平接下来五年要做什么？</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2025/08/02/ep-162-wgg/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-162 吴国光：习近平失去权力了吗？</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

In early June, Australian-Chinese journalist Cheng Lei, detained in China for three years, published her new book, "A Memoir of Freedom," recounting her investigation by state security, accusation of "illegally providing state secrets to foreign countries," and sentencing to two years and eleven months. She recorded this cruel and unbearable experience with delicate, emotional, and compassionate strokes, showcasing how an individual maintains dignity and independence in the face of the state machine. Born in Yueyang, Hunan in 1975, Cheng Lei immigrated to Australia at age 10, spending her adolescence there. In 2002, she began her journalism career in China, working as a financial reporter and host for CCTV and CNBC, reporting on Chinese business and economics. In August 2020, while working at CGTN (China Global Television Network English Channel), Cheng Lei was taken away for investigation by state security. She was held in solitary confinement and repeatedly interrogated for three years and two months until her release in October 2023 through Australian government diplomatic efforts. Why was Cheng Lei detained? What did she experience under "designated residence under surveillance" and imprisonment? What is a prison controlled by state security like? How did she, from a news anchor to prisoner "21003," face the enormous life change? How did she understand China's news and legal environment before and after the case? After experiencing all this, how does she deal with complex emotions towards China? Timeline: 01:40 What was Cheng Lei's life like before the State Security Bureau approached her? 05:01 How were the days of "designated residence under surveillance" spent? 11:37 The reason for the investigation: seven minutes, one sentence 15:08 Friendships harmed by the State Security case, how to face former friends? 19:26 From believing in her innocence to slowly internalizing "I am guilty" 22:50 The environment, food, and friendships of the detention center 31:30 "How many prisoners are spies, and how many are collateral damage from international relations turmoil?" 33:26 Has Cheng Lei's identity changed after the case? 39:30 Does Cheng Lei still want to return to China? 44:22 As a financial anchor on CCTV, how did she understand China's news and legal environment? 48:36 The book's ending: "I hope readers can distinguish between China, the Chinese people, and the CCP" 51:22 Two years after release, what is Cheng Lei's life like? 57:21 Book recommendations, and "hoping to receive news from prison roommates" Guest Recommendations: Yuval Noah Harari, "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" Jared Diamond, "Guns, Germs, and Steel" Anthony Doerr, "All the Light We Cannot See" Related Links: "Cheng Lei: A Memoir of Freedom" "Cheng Lei's story: China's horrific, ultra-secret prison facilities exposed" Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 成蕾：央视主播、泄露机密与国安监狱里的三年

Original description: <p>今年6月上旬，曾被中国关押三年的澳大利亚华裔记者成蕾出版了新书《自由回忆录》，首次完整讲述了她被国家安全部门调查、被控“为境外非法提供国家机密”罪，并被判刑两年十一个月的全过程。她用细腻、感性和悲悯的笔触记录了这段残酷不堪回首的经历，也展现了个人如何在国家机器面前保持人的尊严和独立。</p><br /><p>成蕾1975年出生于湖南岳阳，10岁移民澳大利亚，在那里度过了青少年时期。2002年，他在中国开启了记者生涯，在中央电视台、美国的CNBC电视台做财经记者和主持人，报道中国的商业和经济。2020年8月，成蕾在CGTN（中国环球电视网英语频道）工作期间被国家安全部门带走调查，她被单独关押和反复审讯长达三年零两个月，直到2023年10月在澳大利亚政府的外交努力下获释。</p><br /><p>成蕾为何被关押？被“指定居所监视居住”和被监禁的日子，她都经历了什么？国安部门掌控下的监狱是什么样的？从新闻主播到监狱里的“21003”号犯人，她如何面对巨大的人生落差？案件前后，她如何理解中国的新闻和法律环境？在经历了这一切之后，她如何处理面对中国的复杂情感？</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-175-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-175-text</a></p><br /><p>大家可以在季风书园官网买到成蕾新书《自由回忆录》：</p><p><a href="https://jfbooks.org/products/9781460717912" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://jfbooks.org/products/9781460717912</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:40 被国家安全局找上门之前，成蕾的生活是什么样的？</p><p>05:01 “指定居所监视居住”的日子如何度过？</p><p>11:37 被调查的理由：七分钟，一句话</p><p>15:08 被国安案件伤害的友谊，如何面对曾经好友？</p><p>19:26 从坚信自己无罪，到慢慢内化“我有罪”</p><p>22:50 拘留所的环境、食物与友谊</p><p>31:30 “囚犯有多少是间谍，而不是国际关系动荡的附带损害？”</p><p>33:26 案件之后，成蕾的身份认同发生变化了吗？</p><p>39:30 成蕾还想回到中国吗？</p><p>44:22 在央视做财经主播时，如何理解中国的新闻环境和法律环境？</p><p>48:36 书的结尾：“我希望读者能区分中国、中国人和中共”</p><p>51:22 出狱两周年，成蕾的生活状态如何？</p><p>57:21 书籍推荐，以及“希望能收到监狱室友的消息”</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/25985021/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">尤瓦尔·赫拉利《人类简史》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/1813841/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">贾雷德·戴蒙德《枪炮、细菌与钢铁》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/26431326/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">安东尼·多尔《所有我们看不见的光》</a></p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9781460766576/cheng-lei/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《Cheng Lei：A Memoir of Freedom》</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/FpQPlC-UK8Y?si=HSw0rdnKwfE149of" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《Cheng Lei's story: China's horrific, ultra-secret prison facilities exposed》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

Early this year, after DeepSeek emerged, the US and Silicon Valley were filled with talk about how amazing China is. Silicon Valley's view of Chinese technology has shifted from pure contempt and vigilance to envy, jealousy, and curiosity. This episode's guest, Afra, used to work in Silicon Valley and now writes a Substack Newsletter called Concurrent, focusing on the technological and cultural ecosystems of China and the United States. In this episode, we are not seeking answers to US-China competition. How did Afra perceive the phenomenon of "China anxiety" in Silicon Valley? When Silicon Valley's tech elites express envy, what are they envious of? Does this envy overestimate China's technological breakthroughs and the contradiction of mismatched needs? What does the shift in Silicon Valley's attitude toward China's technological development indicate? Why do American elites feel lost? When Silicon Valley starts learning China's 996 work system, what should be guarded against? We also discussed the differences between the AI ecosystems of China and the United States, and some recent books and arguments about US-China competition popular in Silicon Valley and the United States. **Timeline:** 02:21 How did Silicon Valley's "China anxiety" arise? 06:56 Why hasn't there been widespread envy of China before? 08:38 When Silicon Valley engineers say they envy China, what are they envious of? 12:47 "China copies" and "China wins big," why are polarized narratives so marketable in the United States? 19:11 The great disappointment of American intellectual elites: things invented in the United States are widely used in China 20:21 How do different emphases on idealism and industrial implementation affect the technological development paths of China and the United States? 23:32 Has the United States realized how big the "iceberg under the water" is? 28:17 How to understand China's AI large models choosing open source, while most of the US AI large models are closed source? 32:57 Is the United States overestimating the contradiction between China's technological breakthroughs and mismatched needs due to insufficient domestic demand, unemployment, dependence on subsidies, and overcapacity? 38:54 Does Silicon Valley really envy the Chinese government's strong resource allocation capabilities? 42:30 Can the saying of "rule of lawyers" and "rule of engineers" explain the competitive situation between China and the United States? 45:37 Silicon Valley starts learning China's 996 work system, "Silicon Valley learns bad things from the very beginning!" 47:47 Why would a group of people who least want the government to interfere envy China's totalitarian governance model? 51:41 If Afra could rewrite the narrative about China to help American readers understand China, how would she do it? Guest recommendations: Dan Wang《Breakneck》 Mo Leining《Chinese Typewriter》 Kerry Brown《China Through European Eyes》 Related Links: Concurrent: https://afraw.substack.com EP-166 Xu Chenggang: US-China Technology Competition, Will China Win? EP-155 Li Houchen: Why Can't the "New Three" and AI Save the Chinese Economy? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 硅谷也要996，美国的“中国焦虑”揭示了什么？

Original description: <p>今年年初，DeepSeek横空出世之后，美国和硅谷充满了关于中国如何厉害的言论。硅谷对中国科技的看法从单纯的看不起和戒备，转向羡慕、嫉妒和好奇。本期节目的嘉宾Afra曾在硅谷工作，现在写一个Substack Newsletter叫Concurrent，她的写作主题聚焦中美两国的科技与文化生态。</p><br /><p>这期节目，我们并不寻求中美竞争的答案。Afra是如何感受到硅谷的“中国焦虑”这一现象的？当硅谷的科技精英们表达羡慕的时候，羡慕的是什么？这种羡慕是否高估了中国的技术突破与需求错配的矛盾？硅谷对中国科技发展态度的转变说明了什么？为什么美国精英感到失落？当硅谷开始学习中国的996工作制，有哪些需要警惕的地方？我们还谈论了中美AI生态的不同，以及最近在硅谷和美国流行的一些关于中美竞争的书籍和论调。</p><br /><p><strong>文字版</strong>：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-174-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-174-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>02:21 硅谷的“中国焦虑”是如何出现的？</p><p>06:56 为什么以前没有出现大规模地对中国的羡慕？</p><p>08:38 当硅谷工程师说羡慕中国，羡慕的是什么？</p><p>12:47 “中国靠抄袭”和“中国赢麻了”，为什么两极化的叙事在美国如此有市场？</p><p>19:11 美国知识精英的巨大失落：美国发明的东西在中国被广泛应用起来</p><p>20:21 理想主义和产业落实，不同侧重如何影响了中美两国的科技发展路径？</p><p>23:32 美国意识到“水面下的冰山”有多大了吗？</p><p>28:17 如何理解中国AI大模型选择开源，而美国的AI大模型大多都是闭源的？</p><p>32:57 内需不足、失业、依赖补贴和产能过剩，美国是否高估了中国的技术突破与需求错配的矛盾？</p><p>38:54 硅谷真的羡慕中国政府强力资源调配的能力吗？</p><p>42:30 律师治国和工程师治国的说法，可以解释中美竞争态势吗？</p><p>45:37 硅谷开始学习中国的996工作制度，“硅谷最早就学习坏的东西！”</p><p>47:47 最不想要政府来管的一帮人，为什么会羡慕中国极权治理模式？</p><p>51:41 如果可以重写对中国的叙事帮助美国读者理解中国，Afra会如何做？</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/37422963/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dan Wang《Breakneck》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/36089563/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">墨磊宁《中文打字机》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/36425691/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Kerry Brown《欧洲人眼中的中国》</a></p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p>Concurrent：<a href="https://afraw.substack.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://afraw.substack.com</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/UgK4iR5lz4c" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-166 许成钢：中美科技竞争，中国要赢了吗？</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/cID6p3RVr0M" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-155 李厚辰：为什么“新三样”和AI救不了中国经济？</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

Robert Daly has worked in US-China relations for nearly 40 years, including 12 years in China. He was a US diplomat in China, taught Chinese, starred in one of the most popular TV series in the 90s, "A Native of Beijing in New York," and later spent a long time studying US-China relations. As a witness to the changes in US-China relations, how have Daly's basic feelings about the two countries changed? Why does he think the current US-China relationship must be understood within the framework of a "new Cold War"? How does he view recent US policies towards China? In the context of the new Cold War, how will pessimism about the reality of the United States and excessive praise for Chinese technology affect the policies of the two countries? As a "non-hawk" analyst, what is the biggest challenge he faces in an increasingly closed and antagonistic atmosphere? **Timeline:** 00:00 intro 01:17 As a witness to the changes in US-China relations, how have Daly's basic feelings about the United States and China changed? 06:22 Is this a new Cold War? What is the competition about in the new Cold War? 10:37 How does pessimism about the current state of the United States affect the formulation of China policy? 18:20 How will Beijing take advantage of the pessimistic sentiment in American society? 20:16 How do you view the outside world's endless praise for China's technology industry? 24:52 Q&A;: Is opposing the current authoritarian tendencies in the United States also an effort to defeat autocratic communist China? 26:53 What goals should US policy towards China pursue? 30:35 Q&A;: Is the resilience of the American system underestimated? 32:27 Q&A;: How do you view people who criticize the Communist Party while supporting Trump? 34:51 Q&A;: What was the biggest impact of Trump's rise to power on US policy toward China? 36:41 How do you view "Trump's first term gave the United States a clearer understanding of the threat from the CCP"? 39:04 What are the fatal weaknesses of the Chinese regime? 39:58 Have you observed any traces of civil autonomy in China? 41:57 Q&A;: Is the "satisfaction theory" heard in China sincere or out of politeness? 43:12 Do Ne Zha, Heytea, and Labubu mean that China's cultural soft power has increased? 47:35 As a non-hawk China policy expert, what is the biggest challenge in your current work? Related Links: EP-166 Xu Chenggang: US-China technology competition, will China win? EP-155 Li Houchen: Why can't the "new three" and AI save the Chinese economy? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 【DC不明白节】Robert Daly：万一中国赢了——如何更现实地看待中美竞争？

Original description: <p>&nbsp;Robert Daly戴博在美中关系领域已经工作了将近 40 年，其中有 12 年是在中国。他做过美国驻华外交官，教过中文，出演过90年代最火的电视剧之一《北京人在纽约》，后来长期研究美中关系。</p><br /><p>作为美中关系变化的亲历者，戴博对两国的基本感受发生过怎样的变化？他为什么认为必须用“新冷战”框架理解当下中美关系？如何看待美国近年的对华政策？在新冷战背景下，对美国现实的悲观情绪和对中国科技的过度夸赞，会如何影响两国的政策？作为一位“非鹰派”的分析者，在愈发封闭与对立的氛围下，他面临的最大挑战是什么？</p><br /><p><strong>文字版：</strong><a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-173-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-173-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>00:00 intro</p><p>01:17 作为中美关系变化的亲历者，戴博对美国和中国的基本感受如何变化？</p><p>06:22 这是新冷战吗？新冷战是关于什么的竞争？</p><p>10:37 对美国现状的悲观论调如何影响对华政策的制定？</p><p>18:20 北京方面会如何利用美国社会的悲观情绪？</p><p>20:16 如何看待外界对中国科技业的无限夸赞？</p><p>24:52 现场提问：反对美国当下的威权主义倾向是否也是为打败专制的共产中国而努力？</p><p>26:53 美国对华政策应该追求什么样的目标？</p><p>30:35 现场提问：对美国制度的韧性是否太低估了？</p><p>32:27 现场提问：如何看待一边批判共产党、一边支持川普的人？</p><p>34:51 现场提问：特朗普上台对美国对华政策的最大影响是什么？</p><p>36:41 如何看待“是川普的第一个任期让美国对中共的威胁有了比较清醒的认知”</p><p>39:04 中国政权的致命弱点是什么？</p><p>39:58 是否在中国观察到任何民间自治痕迹？</p><p>41:57 现场提问：在中国听到的“满意论”是真心话还是出于客气？</p><p>43:12 哪吒、霸王茶姬、labubu是否意味着中国文化软实力增强了？</p><p>47:35 作为非鹰派的中国政策专家，目前工作上最大的挑战是什么？</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/UgK4iR5lz4c" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-166 许成钢：中美科技竞争，中国要赢了吗？</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/cID6p3RVr0M" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-155 李厚辰：为什么“新三样”和AI救不了中国经济？</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

今年，“经济上行期的美”忽然成为社交媒体上的流行语。据新榜统计，“千禧年”、“经济上行的美”等怀旧主题标签在中国互联网获得超百亿次的浏览量。怀旧的方向有很多，从街头时尚、流行文化、毕业拿工作offer拿到手软、到相对开放的社会氛围。 当然，千禧年后的中国社会并不完美。在经济高速发展的过程中，有许多人被时代落下，也有很多人被铁拳蹂躏。今天流行的“经济上行的美”，或许并不能完整反映那个时代的面貌。但无论是真实的回忆，还是事后的想象，它都承载着某种集体情绪。 我们邀请了四位来自不同年龄段、不同城市和不同行业的人来谈论这个话题，Ta们眼中的“经济上行期的美“体现在哪些方面？经济上行期的社会氛围如何影响了Ta们的工作、生活和对未来的想象？当一切过去，Ta们打算如何应对经济下行期的生活？ 除了怀念，在本期节目，Ta们也反思了当时只注重经济增长的社会。“经济上行期”不仅关乎经济增长和收入水平，更关乎社会氛围、价值观念与个体命运。当增长的“止痛药”消失，隐藏的问题重新显现，我们对“过去的美好”的怀念，也成为理解当下的重要线索。 **时间轴：** 02:12 韦先生的经济上行期记忆：非主流发型、《无间道》、《刺客信条》 07:35 经济上行期的结束：从刚毕业时很快买房买车，到找工作困难 11:30 他怀恋的韩寒和一个充满批判的时代 16:17 如何度过经济下行期？ 18:22 Cora的北京记忆：个体小店、夜市经济，“特别朴素，又特别有生机” 23:26 清理“低端人口”带来的不安全感 29:26 承认对经济上行期的想象不完美，但珍视“个体可以发光”的社会氛围 31:38 余先生：29岁，从上海大厂辞职，现居柏林 33:23 一场大厂高管的同志婚礼：“好像只要挣够了钱，就能无视社会与政治的规则” 39:41 对经济上行期的反思：以为赚钱是最重要的 43:48 大厂也要过“紧日子”，高薪、团建、年终奖一去不复返 47:30 林女士：70后，“人生每一步都是贴着时代走的” 48:36 毕业即多份offer，工资年年上涨，消费乐观 51:49 2011年辞职创业，从未想过经济下行的可能 55:38 “2019是过去十年最差的一年，也会是往后十年最好的一年” 58:08 疫情期间的挣扎：从积极应对到黯然离场 01:06:43 两代人的对比：以前想要自由，现在想要编制 相关链接： EP-156 在阶层固化中挣扎的人们 EP-157 在阶层固化中挣扎的小镇做题家 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 人们为什么怀念“经济上行期的美”？

Original description: <p>今年，“经济上行期的美”忽然成为社交媒体上的流行语。据新榜统计，“千禧年”、“经济上行的美”等怀旧主题标签在中国互联网获得超百亿次的浏览量。怀旧的方向有很多，从街头时尚、流行文化、毕业拿工作offer拿到手软、到相对开放的社会氛围。</p><br /><p>当然，千禧年后的中国社会并不完美。在经济高速发展的过程中，有许多人被时代落下，也有很多人被铁拳蹂躏。今天流行的“经济上行的美”，或许并不能完整反映那个时代的面貌。但无论是真实的回忆，还是事后的想象，它都承载着某种集体情绪。</p><br /><p>我们邀请了四位来自不同年龄段、不同城市和不同行业的人来谈论这个话题，Ta们眼中的“经济上行期的美“体现在哪些方面？经济上行期的社会氛围如何影响了Ta们的工作、生活和对未来的想象？当一切过去，Ta们打算如何应对经济下行期的生活？</p><br /><p>除了怀念，在本期节目，Ta们也反思了当时只注重经济增长的社会。“经济上行期”不仅关乎经济增长和收入水平，更关乎社会氛围、价值观念与个体命运。当增长的“止痛药”消失，隐藏的问题重新显现，我们对“过去的美好”的怀念，也成为理解当下的重要线索。</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-172-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-172-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>02:12 韦先生的经济上行期记忆：非主流发型、《无间道》、《刺客信条》</p><p>07:35 经济上行期的结束：从刚毕业时很快买房买车，到找工作困难</p><p>11:30 他怀恋的韩寒和一个充满批判的时代</p><p>16:17 如何度过经济下行期？</p><p>18:22 Cora的北京记忆：个体小店、夜市经济，“特别朴素，又特别有生机”</p><p>23:26 清理“低端人口”带来的不安全感</p><p>29:26 承认对经济上行期的想象不完美，但珍视“个体可以发光”的社会氛围</p><p>31:38 余先生：29岁，从上海大厂辞职，现居柏林</p><p>33:23一场大厂高管的同志婚礼：“好像只要挣够了钱，就能无视社会与政治的规则”</p><p>39:41 对经济上行期的反思：以为赚钱是最重要的</p><p>43:48 大厂也要过“紧日子”，高薪、团建、年终奖一去不复返</p><p>47:30 林女士：70后，“人生每一步都是贴着时代走的”</p><p>48:36 毕业即多份offer，工资年年上涨，消费乐观</p><p>51:49 2011年辞职创业，从未想过经济下行的可能</p><p>55:38 “2019是过去十年最差的一年，也会是往后十年最好的一年”</p><p>58:08 疫情期间的挣扎：从积极应对到黯然离场</p><p>01:06:43 两代人的对比：以前想要自由，现在想要编制</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2025/06/22/ep-156-jiecengguhua/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-156 在阶层固化中挣扎的人们</a></p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2025/06/28/ep-157-jiecengguhua/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">EP-157 在阶层固化中挣扎的小镇做题家</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

This year, we screened Wang Nanfu's documentary "Hooligan Sparrow," which was filmed in 2013 and recorded the protests of citizen activists such as Ye Haiyan and lawyer Wang Yu after the "Hainan principal's prostitution of young girls case," as well as the scene of civil society that year. Twelve years later, the lives of every character in the film have undergone tremendous changes with the collapse of Chinese civil society. We looked back with director Wang Nanfu on the active history of Chinese civil society, the thrilling moments during the filming process, what inevitable connection the birth of "Hooligan Sparrow" had with the social reality of that year, and how the possibility of "watching and changing China" was obliterated. How did this film affect Wang Nanfu's creative career? How did she face moments of discouragement, anger, and fear during filming? In an era of utter silence, how can we overcome fear and speak out? ps: The opening of this episode plays a clip from "Hooligan Sparrow." You can also watch the video version on YouTube: [https://youtu.be/3GwOwTCzGu8](https://youtu.be/3GwOwTCzGu8) Timeline: 00:00 "Hooligan Sparrow" clip 01:25 Why did you make this film? What are your feelings about watching the film again after 12 years? 04:44 What inevitable connection does the birth of "Hooligan Sparrow" have with the social reality at the time? 06:54 What changes have taken place in the lives of Ye Haiyan, Wang Yu, and their children? 13:25 As a documentary director whose original intention is to change reality, are there moments of discouragement in the face of reality? 16:02 Will you continue to film Chinese topics in the future? 17:50 Q&A: With the increasing prevalence of national surveillance, how can we live with ourselves or help the world? 21:34 How were the footages brought out of China? 23:27 Fear, shock, and anger are also the driving forces for making the film 27:12 Audience Q&A: Regrets about the film, improvements in China, how to enlighten the majority 30:33 Audience Q&A: How to dispel the fear of facing public power? Related Links [https://bumingbai.net/2024/11/08/ep-122-wangnanfu/](https://bumingbai.net/2024/11/08/ep-122-wangnanfu/) 《EP-122 Wang Nanfu: How do I view American democracy?》 [https://giloo.ist/episodes/5/](https://giloo.ist/episodes/5/) "Hooligan Sparrow" (aka "After Hainan") Hosted on Acast. See [https://acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: 【DC不明白节】王男栿：《流氓燕》之后，中国公民社会的坍塌与可能

Original description: <p>今年不明白节，我们放映了王男栿导演的纪录片《流氓燕》，这部拍摄于2013年的片子记录了“海南校长嫖宿幼女案”后，叶海燕、王宇律师等公民行动者的抗争，以及当年公民社会的景象。</p><br /><p>时隔12年，片中每一个人物的人生都随着中国公民社会的坍塌而发生了巨大的改变。我们和王男栿导演一起回望了中国公民社会活跃的历史，当年拍摄过程中惊心动魄的时刻，《流氓燕》的诞生和当年的社会现实有什么必然联系？“围观改变中国”的可能性是如何被磨灭的？这部影片如何影响了王男栿的创作生涯？她如何面对拍摄中的灰心、愤怒和恐惧时刻？在万籁俱寂的年代，我们如何才能战胜恐惧发出自己的声音。</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-171-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-171-text</a></p><br /><p>ps：本期开头播放的是《流氓燕》片段，大家也可以到YouTube收看<a href="https://youtu.be/3GwOwTCzGu8" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">视频版本</a>。</p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>00:00 《流氓燕》片段</p><p>01:25 当年为什么拍这个电影？时隔12年再看电影是什么感受？</p><p>04:44《流氓燕》的诞生和当时的社会现实有什么必然联系？</p><p>06:54 叶海燕、王宇、以及她们的孩子后来的人生发生了什么变化？</p><p>13:25 一个初心是改变现实的纪录片导演，面对现实有没有灰心的时刻？</p><p>16:02 未来还会拍摄中国议题吗？</p><p>17:50 现场提问：全民监控越来越普遍，如何自处或济世？</p><p>21:34 当年的footage（录像带）是如何带出中国的？</p><p>23:27 恐惧、冲击和愤怒也是做出片子的动力</p><p>27:12 观众提问：片子的遗憾、中国的改善之处、如何启蒙大多数</p><p>30:33 观众提问：如何消解面对公权力的恐惧？</p><br /><p>相关链接</p><p><a href="https://bumingbai.net/2024/11/08/ep-122-wangnanfu/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-122 王男栿：我如何看待美国的民主？》</a></p><p><a href="https://giloo.ist/episodes/5/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《流氓燕》（又名《海南之后》）Hooligan Sparrow</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

Why should we care about the fate of a bookstore? Last September, Jifeng Bookstore opened in Washington, D.C., awakening many people's memories of Shanghai Jifeng. Founded in 1997, Jifeng was one of the most influential independent bookstores in China, with eight stores at its peak. In 2018, Jifeng's last store in Shanghai was forced to close, and the bookstore's director, Yu Miao, experienced a long farewell, conflict, and pressure for 283 days. This is not only the story of one person and one bookstore. The ups and downs of Jifeng Bookstore in China over the past two decades reflect the fate of Chinese civil society. In this episode, we ask Yu Miao to talk about his experience from Shanghai to Washington: Why can't such a powerful government tolerate the existence of a bookstore? What price did he and his family pay after Jifeng closed? Why did he have the courage to reopen Jifeng in the United States six years later? One year after opening, what is the actual operating status of the bookstore behind the lively lectures, the endless media interviews, and the crowded crowds? Can overseas diaspora communities support an independent bookstore? **Timeline:** 01:17 The long farewell, confrontation, and conflict before the forced closure of Shanghai Jifeng Bookstore 07:12 Why can't such a powerful government tolerate the existence of a bookstore? 08:18 Yu Miao's closing speech: Ignorance and absurdity in huge scars 12:03 Losing domestic activity space, Yu Miao went to the United States to study, and his wife was border-controlled when she returned to China to visit relatives 17:00 Where does the motivation to reopen Jifeng in the United States come from? 20:22 Why Washington, D.C.? 24:29 Yu Miao's most memorable readers in the past year 28:30 Revealing the top five best-selling books of the past year! 31:59 Bookstore finances and operations 35:41 More than 80 events have been held! There will also be a Chinese film festival next 43:08 Photos from Shanghai and reader messages decorate DC Jifeng: Nostalgia or rebirth? 47:46 What does Yu Miao think of as a "crossing the scar" moment? 48:58 Guest recommended books and movies 53:10 The last two days of Shanghai Jifeng, the whole audience sang "Auld Lang Syne" Related links: Jifeng official website, welcome to sign up for film festivals and buy books: jfbooks.org "The Last Two Days of Jifeng Bookstore": https://youtu.be/mnBt59s3uXY?si=2_VluyIdC35Dd9Ag Jifeng Bookstore Lectures and Podcasts: https://youtube.com/channel/UCGOYsM0GJXbdrRydvXLl8vQ?si=L78SkrUjuamL2Lfi Guest recommendation: Deborah Tuerkheimer: Why We Believe the Victim Li Yifan: Kill Matt I Love You Yu Xinyan: Made in Ethiopia Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Original title: 从上海到华盛顿：季风书园与中国公民社会的覆灭与新生

Original description: <p>我们为什么要关注一家书店的命运？</p><br /><p>去年9月，季风书园在华盛顿开业，唤醒了许多人对上海季风的记忆。成立于1997年的季风曾是中国最具影响力的独立书店之一，巅峰时曾有8间店。2018年，季风在上海的最后一家门店被迫关闭，书店的负责人于淼经历了283天的漫长告别、冲突与压力。</p><br /><p>这不仅是一个人和一间书店的故事，季风书园在中国近二十年的起伏，折射出中国公民社会的命运。</p><br /><p>本期节目，我们请于淼讲述了他从上海到华盛顿的经历：为什么一个如此强大的政府容纳不下一间书店的存在？季风闭店之后，他和家人经历了什么样的代价？ 6年之后，他为什么有勇气在美国重开季风？开业一年，在热闹的讲座、络绎不绝的媒体采访和拥挤的人潮背后，书店的经营状况究竟如何？海外离散社群能托起一家独立书店吗？</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-170-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-170-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>01:17 上海季风书园被迫关闭前的漫长告别、对抗和冲突</p><p>07:12 为什么一个如此强大的政府容不下一间书店的存在？</p><p>08:18 于淼的闭店演讲：巨大伤疤里的无知和荒谬</p><p>12:03 失去国内活动空间、于淼赴美留学、妻子回国探亲被边控</p><p>17:00 在美国重开季风的动力源自哪里？</p><p>20:22 为什么是华盛顿？</p><p>24:29 过去一年，于淼印象深刻的读者</p><p>28:30 揭秘过去一年最畅销的五本书！</p><p>31:59 书店的财务与经营状况</p><p>35:41 已经做了80多场活动！接下来还有华语影展</p><p>43:08 来自上海的照片和读者留言装饰了DC季风：怀旧还是新生？</p><p>47:46 于淼心目中的“跨越伤疤”时刻是什么样的？</p><p>48:58 嘉宾推荐书与电影</p><p>53:10 上海季风的最后两日，全场合唱《友谊地久天长》</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p>季风官网，欢迎报名影展与购书：<a href="https://jfbooks.org/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">jfbooks.org</a></p><p>《季风书园的最后两天》：<a href="https://youtu.be/mnBt59s3uXY?si=2_VluyIdC35Dd9Ag" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/mnBt59s3uXY?si=2_VluyIdC35Dd9Ag</a></p><p>季风书园的讲座与播客：<a href="https://youtube.com/channel/UCGOYsM0GJXbdrRydvXLl8vQ?si=L78SkrUjuamL2Lfi" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtube.com/channel/UCGOYsM0GJXbdrRydvXLl8vQ?si=L78SkrUjuamL2Lfi</a></p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://www.books.com.tw/products/CN17860471?srsltid=AfmBOoowVo3Kp4fVSdoGQSd-rVS4QotGqTix4hc2RsUeyT226Y0fn2qN" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">德博拉·陶克海默（Deborah Tuerkheimer）：《我们为何质疑受害者》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.chinaindiefilm.org/films/%E6%9D%80%E9%A9%AC%E7%89%B9%E6%88%91%E7%88%B1%E4%BD%A0/?lang=zh-hans" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">李一凡：《杀马特我爱你》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg1ZnwgkFtE" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">余心妍：《埃塞俄比亚制造》（Made in Ethiopia ）</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

这是第二届不明白节特辑的第一集。嘉宾查建英是文革之后的第一批大学生，80年代，她先后在北京大学、南卡罗来纳大学、哥伦比亚大学上学，1986年，查建英回到中国，但很快，充满理想和激情的八十年代终结在广场的坦克之下，查建英以决裂的姿态离开了中国。然而，她和中国的故事并没有就此划上句号。此后，她一次次回到中国，她以作家的身份观察中国的变迁。过去，她因为《弄潮儿》、《中国波普》、《八十年代访谈录》等书籍为人所知。最近，查建英发表了新的文章《火车：铁路旅行、流亡和生存的中国家族史》，文章描述国家暴力之下的家族命运故事。我们从她的新作《火车》谈起，她为什么选取“火车”作为意象贯穿家族史写作？她为什么选择“跳下火车”和“自绝于人民”？经历了文革、六四、新冠疫情之后，她如何看待自己和国家的关系、又如何思考”中国情结”这个问题？时间轴：01:47 查建英的扒火车往事，《火车》一文的缘起与“火车”的含义04:35 家族命运的开端：留法十年的外公1929年被“骗”回了中国12:30 Dongsheng阿姨：从目睹文革中的父母悲剧，到支持镇压天安门18:11 家族里的人如何看待哥哥查建国：因组建中国民主党被判刑9年21:19 “跳火车”的选择： “自绝于人民”，不被爱国话语绑架30:03 六四之后的幻灭、改国籍的过程、疫情记忆37:51 查建英对精英的失望41:03 谈写作：《国家公敌》和《国家公仆》，如何写熟悉的人？48:17 观众提问：家人还在国内，如何不审查自己？49:24 查建英吐槽妈宝男56:04 如何看待导师夏志清40年前的话：“太关注中国是一种局限”相关链接：《Trains: A Chinese Family History of Railway Journeys, Exile, and Survival》《China’s Bizarre Program to Keep Activists in Check》《国家公敌》（Enemy of the State）《国家公仆》（Servant of the State）

Original title: 【DC不明白节】查建英：我为何要自绝于人民、精英与妈宝男

Original description: <p>这是第二届不明白节特辑的第一集。</p><br /><p>嘉宾查建英是文革之后的第一批大学生，80年代，她先后在北京大学、南卡罗来纳大学、哥伦比亚大学上学，1986年，查建英回到中国，但很快，充满理想和激情的八十年代终结在广场的坦克之下，查建英以决裂的姿态离开了中国。</p><br /><p>然而，她和中国的故事并没有就此划上句号。此后，她一次次回到中国，她以作家的身份观察中国的变迁。过去，她因为《弄潮儿》、《中国波普》、《八十年代访谈录》等书籍为人所知。最近，查建英发表了新的文章《火车：铁路旅行、流亡和生存的中国家族史》，文章描述国家暴力之下的家族命运故事。</p><br /><p>我们从她的新作《火车》谈起，她为什么选取“火车”作为意象贯穿家族史写作？她为什么选择“跳下火车”和“自绝于人民”？经历了文革、六四、新冠疫情之后，她如何看待自己和国家的关系、又如何思考”中国情结”这个问题？</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-169-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-169-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><br /><p>01:47 查建英的扒火车往事，《火车》一文的缘起与“火车”的含义</p><p>04:35 家族命运的开端：留法十年的外公1929年被“骗”回了中国</p><p>12:30 Dongsheng阿姨：从目睹文革中的父母悲剧，到支持镇压天安门</p><p>18:11 家族里的人如何看待哥哥查建国：因组建中国民主党被判刑9年</p><p>21:19 “跳火车”的选择： “自绝于人民”，不被爱国话语绑架</p><p>30:03 六四之后的幻灭、改国籍的过程、疫情记忆</p><p>37:51 查建英对精英的失望</p><p>41:03 谈写作：《国家公敌》和《国家公仆》，如何写熟悉的人？</p><p>48:17 观众提问：家人还在国内，如何不审查自己？</p><p>49:24 查建英吐槽妈宝男</p><p>56:04 如何看待导师夏志清40年前的话：“太关注中国是一种局限”</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/features/trains-chinese-family-history-of-railway-journeys-exile-and-survival" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《Trains: A Chinese Family History of Railway Journeys, Exile, and Survival》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/24/chinas-bizarre-program-to-keep-activists-in-check" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《China’s Bizarre Program to Keep Activists in Check》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/04/23/enemy-of-the-state" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《国家公敌》（Enemy of the State）</a></p><p><a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/11/08/servant-of-the-state" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《国家公仆》（Servant of the State）</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

In 1981, young Italian Lao An first came to China to study Chinese. China had just begun its reform and opening up. From 1986, Lao An worked for an Italian company in Hong Kong and Beijing. In 1999, he decided to resign and become an independent filmmaker, and since then he has had more wonderful experiences in China. The most praised of these is that he filmed the only interview documentary of Wang Xiaobo during his lifetime. Over the past four decades, China has undergone many changes, and a large number of foreigners have come and gone. Lao An stayed here. He married in China and had two children whose native language is Chinese. He travels, photographs, and lives in China. Along with China's urbanization, globalization, and economic take-off, Lao An has witnessed the chaotic moments of "countless old rules collapsing and new rules not yet established," and the unique beauty and cruelty in those chaos. Today, Lao An is an Italian with a Chinese green card. His new book "The Grumpy Little Dictionary" records his daily life and absurdity in China for more than 40 years. What crazy things has he experienced in China? What "Chinese characteristics" are there in his travels, photography, and life? How has he understood the changes in Chinese society over the past forty years? As a foreigner who still stays in China, how does he view China today? **Timeline:** 01:47 Yuan Li and Lao An are old friends 03:17 Lao An almost thought the book could not be published, "The road was completely blocked, and suddenly a road popped out beside it" 05:05 From "grumpy" to "not so grumpy", Lao An's change in concept 06:17 In 1978, why did Lao An decide to study Chinese? 09:59 Lao An's impression of China in the 1980s 14:08 In the era when foreigners needed "travel permits", Lao An "mixed" into Sanya 18:11 Lao An quit his high-paying job and decided to become an independent filmmaker 21:13 Lao An's documentary about Songzhuang, "Five+Five" 23:29 Lao An's Chinese driving past: driving a taxi, scaring friends to vomit 28:54 "China is like a huge driving school" 32:06 China's urbanization: homogenization, difficulty, and cruelty 36:08 "Rare animals", foreign guests, devils, foreigners 40:10 In 2023, Lao An returned to Italy, and the streets were "full of Chinese business" 44:57 China's image is getting worse and worse, why does Lao An still live in China? 45:59 Even with a Chinese green card, there are still inconveniences in life 51:18 Does Lao An think that the past China was more interesting? 54:08 In "The Grumpy Little Dictionary", what did the censored entries write? Related Links: [Lao An's "The Grumpy Little Dictionary"](https://a.co/d/1e4Rwsh) [Lao An's "At Ease"](https://book.douban.com/subject/35547859/) [Wang Xiaobo Documentary](https://youtu.be/TsowwLGCE6Y?feature=shared) [Songzhuang Documentary "Five+Five" mentioned in the podcast](https://movie.douban.com/subject/6601426/) Hosted on Acast. See [acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: 老安：一个意大利人对中国气呼呼的爱

Original description: <p>1981年，意大利青年老安第一次来到中国学习中文。当时的中国刚刚开始改革开放，1986年起，老安在香港和北京为意大利公司工作。1999年，他决定辞职，成为一名独立影像人，从此在中国有了更多奇妙的体验，其中最被称道的一件事是，他拍下过王小波生前唯一的访谈纪录片。</p><br /><p>过去四十年，中国发生了许许多多的变化，大量外国人来了又走了。老安留在了这里，他在中国结婚，有了两个以中文为母语的孩子。他在中国旅行、摄影、生活，伴随着中国的城镇化、全球化与经济腾飞，老安目睹了“无数旧规则瓦解、新规则尚未建立”的混乱时刻，和那些混乱里独特的美感与残酷。</p><br /><p>如今，老安是一个有中国绿卡的意大利人，他的新书《气呼呼的小词典》记录了他在中国生活40多年的日常与荒诞。他在中国有过哪些疯狂往事？他的旅游、摄影和生活里有哪些“中国特色”？四十多年来，他如何理解中国社会的变化？作为一个仍然留在中国的外国人，他又如何看待今天的中国？</p><br /><p><strong>文字版</strong>：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-168-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-168-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>01:47 袁莉和老安是老朋友</p><p>03:17 老安差点以为书无法出版，“路全被堵死了，旁边突然窜出来一条路”</p><p>05:05 从“气呼呼”到“没那么气呼呼”，老安的观念变化</p><p>06:17 1978年，老安为什么决定学中文？</p><p>09:59 老安对80年代中国的印象</p><p>14:08 在外国人需要“旅行证”的年代，老安“混”进了三亚</p><p>18:11 老安辞掉高薪工作，决定去做独立影像人</p><p>21:13 老安关于宋庄的纪录片《五+五》</p><p>23:29 老安的中国开车往事：开过出租、吓吐过朋友</p><p>28:54 “中国像一个巨大的驾校”</p><p>32:06 中国的城镇化：同质化、艰难与残酷</p><p>36:08 ”稀有动物“、外宾、鬼子、老外</p><p>40:10 2023年，老安回到意大利，街上“全是中国的生意”</p><p>44:57 中国的形象越来越差，老安为什么还住在中国？</p><p>45:59 即使拿到中国绿卡，生活仍有不便之处</p><p>51:18 老安会觉得过去的中国更有意思吗？</p><p>54:08 《气呼呼的小词典》里，被审查的词条写了什么？</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://a.co/d/1e4Rwsh" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">老安《气呼呼的小词典》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/35547859/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">老安《稍息》</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/TsowwLGCE6Y?feature=shared" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">王小波纪录片</a></p><p><a href="https://movie.douban.com/subject/6601426/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">播客提到的宋庄纪录片《五+五》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

On August 30th, Eastern Time, the Unclear Podcast broadcast a live conversation with Qi Hong, the person involved in the Chongqing slogan projection incident. The next day, we conducted a supplementary interview with Qi Hong. In addition to the topics discussed in the live broadcast: Who is he? Why did he do this? How did he plan and complete this action that can be called "performance art"? This episode also adds more about his experiences of making a living and studying Buddhism in Beijing for 20 years, the novels that influenced him, and how he tried to influence people around him after awakening in recent years, until he took the step of public resistance. What Qi Hong did can be called performance art. At 10 pm on August 29th, huge slogans projected on the exterior wall of a building near Chongqing University suddenly appeared. The slogans read: "There will be a new China without the Communist Party," "Down with red fascism, overthrow the Communist Party's tyranny," "We want truth, not lies, we want freedom, not slavery, the tyrannical Communist Party must step down"... This projection protest lasted for more than 50 minutes before the police located the projection position and shut down the equipment. The projector also left a letter for the police in the hotel room, in which he said: "The reason for taking this step is also out of desperation. Who would want to be displaced if they could have a good life?" He reasoned with the police: "Maybe you are a beneficiary now, but one day you will definitely be a victim on this land." He also called on the police not to embarrass irrelevant personnel: "If it is absolutely necessary, you can also raise the muzzle a little higher." **This episode contains live broadcast content and subsequent additional interview content.** PS: The second Unclear Festival is less than a week away. You are welcome to purchase offline tickets and come to Washington to celebrate the festival with more than two hundred audiences: [https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person](https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person) Click to purchase online tickets and participate in live interaction: [https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online](https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online) You are also welcome to ask questions to the guests of the Unclear Festival: [https://bit.ly/bmbj2-ask-01](https://bit.ly/bmbj2-ask-01) Timeline: 01:10 Background of the Chongqing slogan projection incident 03:07 Qi Hong's current situation and why he did this? 04:20 Early life experiences: Dropping out of school at the age of 16 to work, encountering molestation and violence in a shelter 13:07 In Beijing: Worked in logistics, distributed leaflets, sales, and started a Taobao store in 2006 16:50 Does the identity of a Buddhist conflict with projecting anti-communist slogans? 18:38 Experienced the demolition of Xiangtang Village in Beijing in 2019, and returned to Chongqing in 2021 20:41 Resisted the epidemic prevention policies and participated in the construction of "Fangcang" (makeshift hospitals) 23:17 Inspired by the White Paper Movement and the Sitong Bridge incident 24:22 Qi Hong's aversion to hate education 28:11 How the projection action was planned 30:34 Qi Hong's equipment: laser engraving machine, projector, camera 32:43 Testing slogans: Exercise every day for good health, healthy life is full of joy 34:15 Originally planned to project on "September 3rd" (Victory over Japan Day), but worried about changes and therefore wanted to advance the date 36:48 How to plan the aftermath? Does his family know about this? 38:48 Why did he think of leaving a letter for the police? 41:59 How to remotely control the projection and monitoring? 45:49 Afterwards, Qi Hong's mother was questioned by the police 47:52 How does Qi Hong face online comments? 53:36 How to respond to "the action is to apply for political asylum"? 57:10 How to prevent such actions from being just a personal flash in the pan? 59:59 What does Qi Hong want to say to ordinary Chinese people? 01:01:16 Qi Hong's future plans 01:05:02 When did Qi Hong's "awakening" begin? 01:08:42 Supplementary interview content 01:08:53 Qi Hong's Moments fragments 01:10:17 Why did he close the Taobao store? Where did he go afterwards? 01:11:45 Qi Hong in Beijing: Problems with second-hand housing and children's education 01:14:25 Why did he think of using monitoring to record this action? 01:18:16 Responding to rumors: Was Qi Hong a "internet commentator"? 01:22:32 Moments on the day of the White Paper Movement and the "Dystopian Trilogy" 01:25:39 Qi Hong's hermit-like life 01:27:54 Past nationalist sentiments 01:32:25 Why did he finally take this step? Related links: The "Dystopian Trilogy" mentioned by Qi Hong in the interview: [https://book.douban.com/subject/1858576/](https://book.douban.com/subject/1858576/) "Nineteen Eighty-Four" [https://book.douban.com/subject/27002046/](https://book.douban.com/subject/27002046/) "Brave New World" [https://book.douban.com/subject/4908879/](https://book.douban.com/subject/4908879/) "Animal Farm" Hosted on Acast. See [acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: 对话重庆标语事件当事人戚洪（直播+后续采访）

Original description: <p><br /></p><p>美东时间8月30日晚，不明白播客直播对话了重庆标语投影事件当事人戚洪，次日，我们又和戚洪做了一次补充采访。除了直播中谈论过的话题：他是谁？他为什么做这件事？他如何策划和完成这一场堪称“行为艺术”的行动？本期节目还新增了更多他在北京居住20年间谋生和学佛的经历、影响他的小说、以及他近几年在觉醒后如何试图影响周边的人，直至走到公开反抗这一步。</p><br /><p>戚洪所做的事情堪称行为艺术。8月29日晚上10点，重庆大学附近的一栋大楼外墙，忽然出现投影的巨幅标语。标语上写道：“没有共产党才有新中国”“打倒红色法西斯，推翻共产党暴政”“不要谎言要真相，不要奴役要自由，暴政共产党下台”……</p><br /><p>这次投影抗议持续了50多分钟，最终警察锁定了投影位置才关闭设备。投影人还在酒店房间里给警察留下了一封信，他在信里说：“之所以走这一步，也是无可奈何，谁愿意颠沛流离有好日子不过呢？”他对警察晓之以理：“也许你现在是受益人，但在这片土地上有一天你一定是受害者。“他还呼吁警察不要为难无关人员：“实在迫不得已，也完全可以把枪口往上抬一点”。</p><br /><p><strong>本期节目包含直播内容和后续新增采访内容。</strong></p><br /><p><strong>文字版</strong>：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-167-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-167-text</a></p><br /><p>&nbsp;PS：第二届不明白节还有不到一周就要开始了，欢迎大家购买线下票，来到华盛顿现场与两百多名观众一起过节：<a href="https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person</a>&nbsp;</p><p>点击购买线上票，参与直播互动：<a href="https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online</a></p><p>也欢迎大家向不明白节的嘉宾们提问 ：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmbj2-ask-01" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmbj2-ask-01</a></p><br /><p>时间轴：</p><p>01:10 重庆标语投影事件的背景</p><p>03:07 戚洪的现状、以及他为什么要做这件事？</p><p>04:20 早年人生经历：16岁辍学打工、在收容所遭遇猥亵、暴力</p><p>13:07 在北京：做过后勤、发传单、推销，2006年开淘宝店创业</p><p>16:50 佛教徒身份与投影反共标语冲突吗？</p><p>18:38 2019年在北京经历香堂村拆迁，2021年回到重庆</p><p>20:41 对疫情政策抵触，参与过建“方舱”的工作</p><p>23:17 受到白纸运动和四通桥事件的鼓舞</p><p>24:22 戚洪对仇恨教育的厌恶</p><p>28:11 投影行动是如何策划的</p><p>30:34 戚洪的设备：激光雕刻机、投影仪、摄像头</p><p>32:43 测试标语：天天锻炼身体好，健康生活乐无穷</p><p>34:15 原计划“九三”当天投屏，担心变故因而要提前</p><p>36:48 如何策划后路？家人知道这件事吗？</p><p>38:48&nbsp;为什么想到留下一封给警察的信？</p><p>41:59 如何远程操控投影和监控？</p><p>45:49 事后，戚洪的母亲被警察问话</p><p>47:52 戚洪如何面对网络上的评论？</p><p>53:36 如何回应“行动是为了申请政治庇护“？</p><p>57:10 如何不让这样的行动只是个人的昙花一现？</p><p>59:59 戚洪想对普通中国人说什么？</p><p>01:01:16 戚洪未来的打算</p><p>01:05:02 戚洪的“觉醒”是从什么时候开始的？</p><p>01:08:42 补充采访内容</p><p>01:08:53 戚洪的朋友圈片段</p><p>01:10:17 为什么要关掉淘宝店？之后去哪了？</p><p>01:11:45 戚洪在北京：二手房、孩子读书面临的问题</p><p>01:14:25 为什么想到要用监控记录这场行动？</p><p>01:18:16 回应传言：戚洪当过网评员吗？</p><p>01:22:32 白纸当天的朋友圈与“反乌托邦三部曲”</p><p>01:25:39 戚洪如同隐士一样的生活</p><p>01:27:54 曾经的民族主义情绪</p><p>01:32:25 为什么最后会走出这一步？</p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p>戚洪在采访中提到的“反乌托邦三部曲”：</p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/1858576/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《一九八四》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/27002046/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《美丽新世界》</a></p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/4908879/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《动物农场》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

In 2025, China's economy is in recession: unemployment, debt, and deflation are hitting one after another, but on the other hand, from DeepSeek, domestic chips to J-10 fighters, China seems to be at the forefront of the world in wave after wave of technology boom. Different from the "self-hi" of previous nationalists, the voice of praise for Chinese technology also comes from the United States, the opponent in the trade war. For example, expert testimony at U.S. congressional hearings believes that China has gained an advantage in biopharmaceuticals. A guest commentary in the New York Times commentary section also cited research data from an Australian think tank to prove that China is already leading in the field of technology. The guest of this podcast is Professor Xu Chenggang, a senior researcher at the Stanford Center for Chinese Economic and Institutional Studies. Professor Xu will lead us to re-examine the Sino-US technology competition. When observing and judging the Sino-US technology competition, what aspects should we focus on? How much of China's technological prosperity is real, and how much is illusory? Why can China control the industrial chain globally? Has China surpassed the United States in some technological fields? Should the United States impose a technology blockade on China? PS: The online ticket for the 2nd Do Not Understand Festival is officially open for registration! We will also give away a free online ticket to donors and paid subscribers of the Do Not Understand podcast, including new donations and subscriptions before September 1st. Thank you for your long-term support so that this program can continue. Click to directly purchase tickets and register for free ticket information: [https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online](https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online) Offline ticket purchase link: [https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person](https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person) **Timeline:** 03:21 Taking clinical trials of new drugs as an example, why China's biopharmaceutical advantages are affirmed 06:03 Why is China's technological strength called "me better" 09:27 The debate over stealing technology: what is most important in the industrial revolution 12:10 How to view China's leading data in paper publications and patent applications 17:20 Taking the Nobel Prize and the theory of relativity as examples, why top innovation cannot be measured by indicators 20:01 Why use commercial indicators to measure new quality productivity 26:59 Comparing today's Sino-US competition with the US-Soviet competition during the Cold War 30:44 Occupying the global supply chain with the power of the whole country 33:02 China's pioneering overseas enterprises lack technological competitiveness, but have strong control over the industrial chain 38:42 Taking Nvidia as an example, should the United States impose an AI chip embargo on China 41:41 Is there a solution to "Great Leap Forward" style repeated construction? 47:20 The special relationship between Chinese private enterprises and local industrial strategies 49:18 Why the Chinese government does not allow companies to go bankrupt 52:09 Will China's industrial policy distort the global market? 54:06 Guest recommendation Guest recommendation: [https://book.douban.com/subject/36350632/](https://book.douban.com/subject/36350632/) Chris Miller, "Chip War" [https://www.books.com.tw/products/0011017145?srsltid=AfmBOopTLOdqhffX5AYuHfIT7Knecm9i541NUMMeIXyri233gs2IWfao](https://www.books.com.tw/products/0011017145?srsltid=AfmBOopTLOdqhffX5AYuHfIT7Knecm9i541NUMMeIXyri233gs2IWfao) Shi Qintai, Chen Tianzhi, Wu Shumin, "From the Edge to the Core, How Taiwan's Semiconductor Became the Heart of the World" [https://www.books.com.tw/products/0011005571?srsltid=AfmBOoouY6LTs14fmlfmHJVm4T1PtkxS-c7j7X_NwO9cW489PFUJAYCA](https://www.books.com.tw/products/0011005571?srsltid=AfmBOoouY6LTs14fmlfmHJVm4T1PtkxS-c7j7X_NwO9cW489PFUJAYCA) "Morris Chang's Autobiography" [https://a.co/d/7sps0pO](https://a.co/d/7sps0pO) Xu Chenggang, "Institutional Gene: The Origin of Chinese Institutions and Totalitarian Institutions" Related links: [https://a.co/d/7OV1Csk](https://a.co/d/7OV1Csk) "Institutional Gene" English version [https://youtu.be/LZa0dmyWteE](https://youtu.be/LZa0dmyWteE) "EP-137 Xu Chenggang: Can DeepSeek and Private Enterprise Symposium Revitalize China's Economy?" Hosted on Acast. See [acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: 许成钢：中美科技竞争，中国要赢了吗？

Original description: <p>2025年，中国经济陷入低迷：失业、债务、通缩轮番袭来，但另一面从DeepSeek、国产芯片到歼十战机，在一波又一波的科技热潮中，中国似乎走在了世界前列。</p><br /><p>不同于以往民族主义者的“自嗨”，对中国技术赞扬的声音还来自于贸易战中的对手美国。比如美国国会听证会上的专家证词认为，中国已经取得生物制药的优势。纽约时报评论版一篇客座评论员文章也引述了澳大利亚某智库的研究数据来证明中国在技术领域已经领先。</p><br /><p>本期播客的嘉宾是斯坦福大学中国经济与制度研究中心高级研究员许成钢教授。许教授会带领我们重新审视中美科技竞争，在观察判断中美科技竞争时，我们应该把注意力放在哪些方面？中国科技的繁盛景象有多少是真实的，又有多少是虚幻的？为什么中国能在全球范围内控制产业链？中国是否在一些技术领域已经超越了美国？美国应该对中国实行技术封锁吗？</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-166-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-166-text</a></p><br /><p>PS：第二届不明白节线上票正式开放报名！我们也将为不明白播客的捐赠人及付费订阅听众免费赠送一张线上票，包含9月1日前的新增捐赠及订阅，感谢大家的长期支持，使这个节目可以一直做下去。点击即可直接购票、登记赠票信息：<a href="https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online</a></p><p>线下票购买链接：<a href="https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>03:21 以新药的临床实验为例，为什么中国生物制药优势被肯定</p><p>06:03 为什么说中国科技实力是“me better”</p><p>09:27 偷技术的争论：产业革命中最重要的是什么</p><p>12:10 如何看待中国在论文发表和专利申请上的数据领先</p><p>17:20 以诺贝尔奖和相对论为例，为什么顶尖创新无法用指标衡量</p><p>20:01 为什么要用商业指标来衡量新质生产力</p><p>26:59 对比今天的中美竞争和冷战时期的美苏竞争</p><p>30:44 以举国之力占领全球供应链</p><p>33:02 中国的前沿出海企业缺乏科技竞争力，但对产业链的掌控力很强</p><p>38:42 以英伟达为例，美国应该对中国进行AI芯片禁运吗</p><p>41:41 “大跃进”式重复建设有解吗？</p><p>47:20 中国私有企业和地方产业战略的特殊关系</p><p>49:18 为什么中国政府不允许企业破产</p><p>52:09 中国的产业政策会扭曲全球市场吗</p><p>54:06 嘉宾推荐</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/36350632/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">克里斯·米勒《芯片战争》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.books.com.tw/products/0011017145?srsltid=AfmBOopTLOdqhffX5AYuHfIT7Knecm9i541NUMMeIXyri233gs2IWfao" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">史钦泰、 陈添枝,、吴淑敏《从边缘到核心，台湾半导体如何成为世界的心脏》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.books.com.tw/products/0011005571?srsltid=AfmBOoouY6LTs14fmlfmHJVm4T1PtkxS-c7j7X_NwO9cW489PFUJAYCA" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《张忠谋自传》</a></p><p><a href="https://a.co/d/7sps0pO" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">许成钢《制度基因──中国制度与极权主义制度的起源》</a></p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://a.co/d/7OV1Csk" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《制度基因》英文版</a></p><p><a href="https://youtu.be/LZa0dmyWteE" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《EP-137 许成钢：DeepSeek、民企座谈会能否重振中国经济？》</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

From Xi Jinping's purges, succession issues, to US-China technology competition, we discuss some of the most noteworthy topics with renowned historian Professor Stephen Kotkin. Professor Kotkin is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a leading scholar on the Soviet Union and Stalin. He is the author of the two-volume "Stalin" biography and is currently writing the third volume. His research on Stalin has reshaped our understanding of the operating logic of Leninist regimes. His research extends beyond the Soviet Union to global authoritarianism and increasingly focuses on contemporary China. In this episode, Professor Kotkin explains why he says Stalin, not Mao Zedong, is the ultimate model of a dictator, why Hitler faced multiple assassination attempts while Stalin did not, how to understand Xi Jinping's current purges from Stalin's purges in the 1930s, what elite dissatisfaction means for Leninist totalitarian regimes, and why Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Xi Jinping are unwilling to appoint successors, among many other questions. This is the first time Unclear Podcast has recorded a program in English. On YouTube, we have carefully prepared Chinese subtitles for our listeners. Click here: [https://youtu.be/WMb7y1JIgUA](https://youtu.be/WMb7y1JIgUA) We believe that Professor Kotkin's research is essential for understanding contemporary China. PS: Registration for the second Unclear Festival online ticket is now officially open! We will also give away a free online ticket to donors and paid subscribers of the Unclear Podcast, including new donations and subscriptions before September 1st. Thank you for your long-term support, which allows this program to continue. Click to purchase tickets or register for free tickets: [https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online](https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online) Offline ticket purchase link: [https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person](https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person) **Timeline:** 02:43 Why is Stalin, not Mao Zedong, the Gold Standard of dictators? 08:00 Does Stalin's rise help to understand Xi Jinping? 12:54 Did Xi Jinping intend to become a dictator from the start? 14:10 The relationship between the Communist Party and private enterprises 18:06 "You can't be half a communist, just like you can't be half pregnant" 22:14 Two things learned at the Central Party School: the rise of the East and the fall of the West, and the collapse of the Soviet Union 24:57 The incompatibility of Leninist regimes with political reform 26:29 Similarities between Xi Jinping's purges and Stalin's purges 30:44 Xi Jinping's dilemma in a huge system: even close aides can be a threat 38:39 Limitations of Xi Jinping's power in daily affairs or policy issues 39:34 Why Hitler faced multiple assassination attempts while Stalin did not 45:14 The biggest weakness of the Xi regime: elite doubts 49:50 The unexpected revealing effect of the Zero-COVID policy on ordinary Chinese people 52:39 Are CIA recruitment ads for CCP officials effective? 54:50 Taking Confucius Institutes as an example, how to respond to the CCP's challenges in soft power 59:50 How to respond to current US immigration and economic policies 1:09:57 Technology showdown: Lessons from the US-Soviet Cold War and a comparison of the technological strength of the Soviet Union and China 1:19:00 Can technological competition solve the legitimacy and fragility of the regime? 1:28:50 The Taiwan issue and Xi Jinping's considerations 1:41:50 Will Xi Jinping appoint a successor? 1:50:01 We must prepare for Xi Jinping to continue in power for 20 or even 25 years 1:52:30 "In an unfree system, you can still live a free life" 2:00:10 Guest recommendations Guest Recommendations: [https://book.douban.com/subject/2254651/](https://book.douban.com/subject/2254651/) Elias Canetti 《Auto-da-Fé》 [https://www.ucpress.edu/books/ideology-and-organization-in-communist-china/paper](https://www.ucpress.edu/books/ideology-and-organization-in-communist-china/paper) Franz Schurmann《Ideology and Organization in Communist China》 [https://www.sup.org/books/history/partys-interests-come-first](https://www.sup.org/books/history/partys-interests-come-first) Tang Zhixue 《The Party's Interests Come First》 (Biography of Xi Zhongxun) Related Links: [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/299269/stalin-by-stephen-kotkin/](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/299269/stalin-by-stephen-kotkin/) 《Stalin: Paradoxes of Power, 1878-1928》 [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/529319/stalin-by-stephen-kotkin/](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/529319/stalin-by-stephen-kotkin/) 《Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941》 Hosted on Acast. See [https://acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: Stephen Kotkin：从斯大林的大清洗看今天的习近平

Original description: <p>从习近平的清洗、接班人问题、到中美技术竞争，我们和著名历史学家Stephen Kotkin科特金教授讨论了当下最值得关注的一些话题。&nbsp;</p><br /><p>科特金教授是胡佛研究所高级研究员，也是研究苏联和斯大林最顶尖的学者。他是两卷本《斯大林传》的作者，正在撰写第三卷。他对斯大林的研究重塑了我们对列宁主义政权运行逻辑的理解。他的研究超越了苏联，延伸到全球威权主义，并越来越关注当代中国。&nbsp;</p><br /><p>在这期节目里，科特金教授解释了他为什么说斯大林而不是毛泽东是独裁者的最高典范，为什么希特勒多次遭遇暗杀而斯大林却没有，如何从斯大林30年代的大清洗来理解习近平眼下的清洗，精英阶层的不满对于列宁主义极权政权意味着什么，为什么斯大林、毛泽东和习近平都不愿指定接班人等很多问题。&nbsp;</p><br /><p>这是不明白播客首次用英文录制节目，在YouTube上，我们为听众朋友们精心准备了中文字幕。&nbsp;点击直达：<a href="https://youtu.be/WMb7y1JIgUA" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/WMb7y1JIgUA</a></p><br /><p>我们相信，科特金教授的研究对于理解当下的中国至关重要。</p><br /><p>PS：第二届不明白节线上票正式开放报名！我们也将为不明白播客的捐赠人及付费订阅听众免费赠送一张线上票，包含9月1日前的新增捐赠及订阅，感谢大家的长期支持，使这个节目可以一直做下去。点击即可直接购票、登记赠票信息：<a href="https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-online</a></p><br /><p>线下票购买链接：<a href="https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person</a>&nbsp;</p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-165-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-165-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴：</strong></p><p>02:43 为什么斯大林而不是毛泽东是独裁者的最高典范Gold Standard？</p><p>08:00 斯大林的崛起轨迹是否有助于理解习近平？</p><p>12:54 习近平一上台就打算好了做独裁者吗？</p><p>14:10 共产党和私营企业的关系</p><p>18:06 “你不可能只是半个共产政权，就好像你不可能是半个孕妇”</p><p>22:14 中央党校学习两件事：东升西降与苏联倒台</p><p>24:57 列宁主义政权与政治改革的不兼容性</p><p>26:29 习近平清洗和斯大林清洗的相似之处</p><p>30:44习近平在庞大系统里的困境：亲信也可能是威胁</p><p>38:39 习近平在日常事务或政策问题上的权力局限</p><p>39:34 为什么希特勒多次遭遇暗杀而斯大林却没有</p><p>45:14 习政权最大弱点：精英阶层的疑虑</p><p>49:50 清零政策意外对普通中国人的揭示作用</p><p>52:39 中情局招募中共官员的广告是否有效</p><p>54:50 以孔子学院为例，如何应对中共在软实力上的挑战</p><p>59:50 如何回应美国目前的移民和经济政策</p><p>1:09:57 科技对决：美苏冷战的教训及苏联与中国技术实力的比较</p><p>1:19:00 科技竞争可以解决政权合法性及统治的脆弱性吗？</p><p>1:28:50 台湾问题与习近平的考量</p><p>1:41:50 习近平会指定继承者吗？</p><p>1:50:01 我们要为习近平继续执政20年甚至25年做好准备</p><p>1:52:30 “在不自由的体制下，依然能活出自由的人生”</p><p>2:00:10 嘉宾推荐&nbsp;</p><br /><p>嘉宾推荐：</p><p><a href="https://book.douban.com/subject/2254651/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Elias Canetti 《Auto-da-Fé》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.ucpress.edu/books/ideology-and-organization-in-communist-china/paper" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Franz Schurmann《Ideology and Organization in Communist China》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.sup.org/books/history/partys-interests-come-first" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">唐志学《The Party's Interests Come First》（习仲勋传）</a></p><br /><p>相关链接：</p><p><a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/299269/stalin-by-stephen-kotkin/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《斯大林传第一卷——权力的悖论 1878-1928》</a></p><p><a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/529319/stalin-by-stephen-kotkin/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">《斯大林传第二卷——等待希特勒 1929-1941》</a>&nbsp;</p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>

In April-July this year, four well-known entrepreneurs, Bi Guangjun, Liu Wenchao, Zeng Yuzhou, and Wang Linpeng, died unnaturally one after another. From January to July this year, at least 19 actual controllers, chairmen, or senior executives of listed companies have been investigated by procuratorial organs with "retention" measures. Among them is Wang Linpeng, chairman of Easyhome (formerly Beijing Easyhome) who just passed away - he was detained three times, and only four days after his last detention was lifted, he suddenly fell to his death. Looking back at the past 5 years, from the Ren Zhiqiang case, the Sun Dawu case, the so-called crackdown on organized crime, to the long-distance fishing targeting entrepreneurs, to today's entrepreneur bankruptcies, debts, detentions, imprisonments, and suicides, the survival environment of private entrepreneurs continues to deteriorate. This episode's guest, Wu Lei, is a well-known Chinese criminal defense lawyer who has defended many entrepreneurs' cases. In 2019, he was retaliated against by the government and had his lawyer's license revoked, but he has been working behind the scenes to protect the rights of private entrepreneurs. In Wu Lei's career experience, what have Chinese private entrepreneurs experienced in recent years? In addition to the crackdown on organized crime and long-distance fishing, what other unknown case-handling models are there? How does he view the experiences of these entrepreneurs? Why does he say entrepreneurs are "naive and childish"? Wu Lei talked about many unreported cases. As a lawyer, in a situation where the rule of law is destroyed and the parties and their families are threatened, why does Wu Lei still insist that judicial defense is important? In an environment where political will outweighs legal will, what else can entrepreneurs do? PS: The 2nd "Don't Understand" Festival is coming! On September 6th, listeners are welcome to come to Washington, D.C. We will spend a day reviewing the road we have traveled, reflecting on the reality we are in, and imagining the possibilities of the future through documentary screenings, crosstalk performances, and live conversations. Click the link to register now: [https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person](https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person) **Timeline**: 00:00 A series of entrepreneur suicides and detentions 02:19 Wu Lei's career experience, "not surprised by all this" 04:23 What is retention? "Both 'Shuanggui' and retention have been abused" 07:10 The environment of the retention center, "comparable to a black jail" 10:54 How to view the "original sin" problem of entrepreneurs 14:35 Timeline of the deteriorating survival environment for private entrepreneurs 16:54 The relationship between the crackdown on organized crime and the crackdown on entrepreneurs 19:17 The Sun Dawu case as a turning point: the exodus of entrepreneurs, or leaning towards the central government 24:35 The "naivety and childishness" of entrepreneurs: the desire to serve the country through industry and ignorance of real risks 29:17 The "fishing" wave of young entrepreneurs: start-ups become fiscal prey. 31:56 Case-handling models Wu Lei has seen in his legal career: forcing entrepreneurs to fabricate bribery facts 37:35 Are entrepreneurs in Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou more at ease? 42:10 How to understand the attitude of entrepreneurs' families towards lawyers? 45:16 Under judicial injustice, the market for brave and serious lawyers is growing 47:27 Should wrongful convictions be made public? The game of bribery vs. defense 52:38 Wu Lei's recommendations **Cases and people mentioned in this podcast**: Sun Dawu case: [https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E5%A4%A7%E5%8D%88](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E5%A4%A7%E5%8D%88) Entrepreneur Ren Zhiqiang: [https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BB%BB%E5%BF%97%E5%BC%BA](https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BB%BB%E5%BF%97%E5%BC%BA) Zhang Dewu case of Xiangda Group: [https://china.caixin.com/2023-01-04/101985224.html](https://china.caixin.com/2023-01-04/101985224.html) Real Kung Fu Cai Dabiao case: [https://other.caixin.com/2013-12-13/100617471.html](https://other.caixin.com/2013-12-13/100617471.html) The gang-related case involving Wu Lei's client Lin Feng: [https://www.spp.gov.cn/spp/zhuanlan/201811/t20181101_397244.shtml](https://www.spp.gov.cn/spp/zhuanlan/201811/t20181101_397244.shtml) Lawyer Wang Quanzhang: [https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%8B%E5%85%A8%E7%92%8B](https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%8B%E5%85%A8%E7%92%8B) Hosted on Acast. See [acast.com/privacy](https://acast.com/privacy) for more information.

Original title: 伍雷：民营企业家接连自杀背后

Original description: <p>今年4月-7月，毕光钧、刘文超、曾育周、汪林朋四位知名企业家接连非自然死亡。今年1-7月，已有至少19位上市公司的实际控制人、董事长或高管被检察机关以“留置”措施调查。其中就包括刚刚去世的居然智家（前居然之家）董事长汪林朋——他被留置过三次，在最后一次留置被解除仅四天后，突然坠楼去世。</p><br /><p>回顾过去5年，从任志强案、孙大午案、所谓的扫黑除恶打击有组织犯罪、到针对企业家的远洋捕捞，到今天的企业家破产、负债、被留置、坐牢、自杀。民营企业家的生存环境不断恶化。</p><br /><p>本期节目的嘉宾伍雷是中国知名的刑辩律师，他为不少企业家的案件辩护过。2019年，他被政府打击报复，被吊销了律师执照，但一直在幕后为民营企业家维权出谋划策。在伍雷的从业经历里，中国民营企业家这些年都经历了什么？除了扫黑除恶、远洋捕捞、还有哪些不为人知的办案模式？</p><br /><p>他又如何看待这些企业家的遭遇？他为什么说企业家们“天真而又幼稚”？伍雷谈到了许多未被报道过的案件。作为律师，在法治被破坏殆尽、当事人及家属被威胁的状况下，伍雷为什么仍然坚持司法辩护是重要的？在政治意志大于法律意志的环境里，企业家还能做什么？</p><br /><p>PS：第二届不明白节来啦！9月6日，欢迎听众朋友们来到华盛顿，我们将用一天的时间，透过纪录片放映、相声表演与现场对谈，回顾我们来时的路，思考我们身处的现实，也共同想象未来的可能。点击链接立即报名：<a href="https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/2025-in-person</a></p><br /><p>文字版：<a href="https://bit.ly/bmb-164-text" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/bmb-164-text</a></p><br /><p><strong>时间轴</strong>：</p><p>00:00 一系列的企业家自杀和被留置事件</p><p>02:19 伍雷的从业经历，“对这一切并不吃惊”</p><p>04:23 被留置是怎么回事？“不管是双规还是留置，都被滥用了”</p><p>07:10 留置中心环境，“堪比黑监狱”</p><p>10:54 如何看待企业家的“原罪”问题</p><p>14:35 民营企业家生存环境恶化的时间线</p><p>16:54 扫黑除恶运动与打击企业家的关系</p><p>19:17 孙大午案作为转折点：企业家的润潮，或向中央靠拢</p><p>24:35 企业家的“天真与幼稚”：产业报国的愿望与对现实风险的无知</p><p>29:17 年轻的创业者被“捕捞”潮：创业公司成为财政猎物。</p><p>31:56 伍雷律师生涯见过的办案模式：逼迫企业家编造行贿事实</p><p>37:35 北上广的企业家会安心一点吗？</p><p>42:10 如何理解企业家的家属对律师的态度？</p><p>45:16 司法不公之下，勇敢认真的律师的市场越来越大</p><p>47:27 冤案到底要不要公开？行贿vs 辩护的博弈</p><p>52:38 伍雷的推荐</p><br /><p><strong>嘉宾推荐：</strong></p><p><a href="https://bit.ly/164-ngssl" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">杨小凯《牛鬼蛇神录》</a></p><p><a href="https://a.co/d/5FFoTG4" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">许成钢《制度基因》</a></p><p><a href="https://movie.douban.com/subject/19899628/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">电影《南营洞1985》郑智泳</a></p><p><a href="https://movie.douban.com/subject/21937445/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">电影《辩护人》杨宇硕</a></p><br /><p><strong>本期播客谈到的案件和人物</strong>：</p><p>孙大午案：<a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E5%A4%A7%E5%8D%88" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/孙大午</a></p><p>企业家任志强：<a href="https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BB%BB%E5%BF%97%E5%BC%BA" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/任志强</a></p><p>襄大集团张德武案：<a href="https://china.caixin.com/2023-01-04/101985224.html" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://china.caixin.com/2023-01-04/101985224.html</a></p><p>真功夫蔡达标案：<a href="https://other.caixin.com/2013-12-13/100617471.html" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://other.caixin.com/2013-12-13/100617471.html</a></p><p>伍雷律师的当事人林风牵连的涉黑案：<a href="https://www.spp.gov.cn/spp/zhuanlan/201811/t20181101_397244.shtml" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.spp.gov.cn/spp/zhuanlan/201811/t20181101_397244.shtml</a></p><p>王全璋律师：<a href="https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%8B%E5%85%A8%E7%92%8B" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/王全璋</a></p><hr /><p style="color: grey; font-size: 0.75em;"> Hosted on Acast. See <a href="https://acast.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="color: grey;" target="_blank">acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.</p>