In 2021, Sam Altman personally invested $375 million in Helion Energy, an American nuclear fusion startup, his largest personal bet to date. Helion boasts that it will build the world's first 50-megawatt fusion power plant by 2028.
Musk has a different view. He once said, "We have an inexhaustible nuclear fusion reactor above our heads – the sun." He believes solar energy is the fundamental path to solving humanity's energy problems.
However, in the eyes of many, **controlled nuclear fusion is still the "holy grail of energy."**
As we move towards AGI today, energy will be the biggest bottleneck for civilization's evolution – after all, AGI may not fear humans, but it certainly fears power outages.
In this episode, I invited Yang Zhao, the founder of Energy Singularity, a Chinese controlled nuclear fusion startup, to talk about it. Compared to AI, controlled nuclear fusion is a longer and less traveled entrepreneurial path.
**It is almost facing one of the most complex physical problems in human history, standing on the edge of technology and human civilization, exploring technology.**
In the program, Yang Zhao gave us a popular science introduction to the cutting-edge technology of controlled nuclear fusion; as a participant in China's controlled nuclear fusion cause, he also relatively clearly calculated **how much funding is still needed for humans to tame controlled nuclear fusion? How much further do we have to go?** We also talked about what our world and our civilization will be like in the more distant future when energy becomes infinite.
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Quick Q&A from 03:00
**High-frequency professional term explanation**
04:10 Nuclear fusion, nuclear fission, controlled nuclear fusion, tokamak, high-temperature superconducting tokamak, there are only 3 full low-temperature superconducting devices in the world
13:22 The "International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER)" jointly launched by many countries, a super-large tokamak device, has invested 25 billion euros and has a construction period of 30 years
14:47 Both high-temperature superconducting materials and low-temperature superconducting materials are low-temperature (high-temperature superconductivity can reduce the device volume by two orders of magnitude under the condition of energy gain, which also means that the construction cost is reduced by about two orders of magnitude)
19:17 A key indicator: Q value/energy gain is determined by the triple product (plasma density × temperature × confinement time), the world's highest Q value has just passed 1, and currently pursuing Q>10
**History of Controlled Nuclear Fusion**
21:55 Starting from Einstein's mass-energy equation E=MC², very small mass loss will produce huge energy
27:09 From hydrogen bombs to inertial confinement to magnetic confinement, different magnetic field shapes correspond to different magnetic confinement bifurcation technology routes
27:50 In the 1960s, the Soviet Union thought of the tokamak route with a donut-like magnetic field configuration
28:50 There are probably more than 100 tokamak devices in the world
29:11 Transition from the era of using copper to make tokamaks to using superconductors to make tokamaks
30:17 In 2024, we built the world's first full high-temperature superconducting tokamak ("Honghuang 70" device)
**4 Years of Nuclear Fusion Entrepreneurship**
34:01 2021 idea: Maybe high-temperature superconductivity significantly reduces the device volume and reduces the cost by two orders of magnitude
39:43 After thinking clearly, build a team, starting with 4 people
41:05 Yang Zhao's personal background: Stanford Ph.D. direction is relatively basic physics, quantum gravity, string theory, the intersection of quantum gravity and quantum information, basic physics that is far from this world
46:36 Human science's "pearl" and "lifetime" series
51:05 Between graduating with a Ph.D. and starting a nuclear fusion business? Doing EIR (Entrepreneur in Residence) at GSR Ventures in the United States, the first venture combining artificial intelligence and music education
55:36 Early 2021, market research for nuclear fusion research institutes and suppliers
**"Honghuang 70", "Honghuang 170" and Jingtian Magnet**
59:37 How is "Honghuang 70" built? What are the steps to make a full high-temperature superconducting tokamak?
01:07:33 Problems are constantly emerging in every link. The closer you get to the real object, the bigger and more problems you have, and the higher the cost of modification and repair
01:15:43 The significance of "Honghuang 70"
01:18:49 The "three-step" to the first controlled nuclear fusion product
01:21:10 The significance of Jingtian Magnet (large-aperture magnet) and "Honghuang 170"
01:35:18 Comments on the world's 3 full low-temperature superconducting devices (EAST in Hefei, China, KSTAR in South Korea, and JT-60SA in Japan)
01:38:40 "Honghuang 380", made according to the requirements of a demonstration power station that can run for a long time with complete energy
**How much further do humans have to go to tame controlled nuclear fusion?**
01:41:40 Sam Altman's largest personal investment to date is Helion Energy: "The magnetic field configuration is linear, unlike ours which is a donut"
01:45:06 What is the relationship between nuclear fusion and AI?
01:52:13 The division and differences of the Chinese and American nuclear fusion market pattern
01:54:10 Our technology route is similar to that of CFS (Commonwealth Fusion Systems, a federal nuclear fusion system company spun off from MIT)
01:56:40 The raw material for true fusion commercialization needs to use deuterium-deuterium to generate electricity, not deuterium-tritium
02:03:16 What will the world be like when energy is infinite?
02:04:57 Talking about self and organization, climbing and falling
02:30:57 Final quick Q&A
Energy Singularity site and device diagram located in Lingang, Shanghai:
(Above: Outside the company)
(Above: Inside the factory)
(Above: "Honghuang 70" under construction)
(Above: "Honghuang 70" plasma)
(Above: The moment "Honghuang 70" was completed)
(Above: "Jingtian Magnet")
(Above: The testing system of "Jingtian Magnet", "Jingtian Magnet" lies in a large tank)
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Original title:
99. 对能量奇点创始人杨钊3小时访谈：人类驯服可控核聚变还有多少路程？
Original description:
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